Seeking Comments - Handgun Grips

[ArrDave]

I strung together a bunch of Firearms Nation Podcasts featuring snips from Yong Lee, Eric G, Hwansik K, and Ron Avery.  It basically has me to the conclusion that a proper "grip" is entirely front to back. 

I share this knowing full well there is criticism coming but I'm more interested in "figuring this out" rather than "being right" on the internet - so I post it here for comment. 

 

The executive summary is the "push pull" of the weaver is the correct grip to use in the modern Iso stance.  Chris Tilley posted a video on grip basically affirming the same thing about a week after I did it.   So I'm hoping to start a conversation on this.  In my own shooting, pushing on the backstrap of the gun firmly, it almost feels like it's coming from my back, and pulling on the front strap, where it almost feels like it's coming in part from my shoulder seems to be netting me the best results in terms of flattening the gun as well as dot movement being balanced straight up and down.   So please - weigh in with your comments.  The dot returns MUCH faster if the push into the backstrap almost feels like it's from my back. 

 

This is a video you can listen to without watching - it's long - about 26 minutes.  There are time codes in the description if you want to skip my jabber in between. 

So please - lay it on me - what are your thoughts on grip?

 

 

[thouston406]

I've also recently been listening to all of these, what seems to me, new ideas on grip. It is making me reassess and rebuild grip and I'm excited to see what it produces.

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[Dranoel]

Honestly, I was expecting just the opposite of what I heard, for the most part. And what I heard was pretty much what I've been saying for a long time: Relax, grip the gun firmly but neutral. The gun is going to move. You're going to get muzzle flip. I don't want to stop the flip, I just want to keep it from flipping the gun out of my hands. I don't care if the muzzle raises 4 inches and does a figure 8. What's important to me is that when the slide cycles and locks into battery the sights are where they were when I fired the shot. You will only get that with a neutral grip. If you are pushing harder with your right hand or pulling harder with your left the sights won't return to where they were and you have to adjust. Also if you grip it all too hard then your whole body tends to tense up and that not only throws everything off, it makes it harder to move quickly.

[tanks]

1 hour ago, ArrDave said:

...The executive summary is the "push pull" of the weaver is the correct grip to use in the modern Iso stance. 

 

 

Except. Kim H. was talking about gripping front to back like a "C clamp", not push pull. BTW,  Ron Avery has been teaching the "C clamp" method for decades.

[ArrDave]

7 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

Except. Kim H. was talking about gripping front to back like a "C clamp", not push pull. BTW,  Ron Avery has been teaching the "C clamp" method for decades.

I think the difference is nuanced - I've not taken a class with either but listened to a lot of interviews with them and probably have watched all the avery videos. Lets see if we can summon him to speak for himself.  Avery - with the pliable hands method is pretty much instructing to pull with the fingers while mushing the palm of the hand into the frame, making good contact, but I don't think the palm of the support hand is putting a bunch of pressure on the firearm.  I could be off base - but that's my understanding having watched the videos on it. 

Chris tilley recently posted this as well - and they all sound similar enough to be talking about the same thing in different ways. 

https://youtu.be/ZmFZAqSCeyI

 

 

@hwansikcjswo

[wtturn]

It is highly nuanced and it's hard to describe in first person to the extent that the listener can interpret exactly what tactile sensation is being felt.

 

I've listened to all those interviews multiple times myself and also have listened to your summary once.

 

From their firsthand descriptions, I think Yong and Grauffel are more alike and I think Hwansik and Ron Avery are more alike, with overlap throughout.

 

I think Yong and Grauffel are actually applying weaver-like push-pull forces front-to-back.  

 

I think Hwansik and Avery are applying clamping force front-to-back but not exclusive of lateral force.  

 

Hwansik actually describes applying lateral force, but specifically mentions that it must be balanced (or neutral) to avoid imparting a lateral bias in the sights or arc of recoil.

 

I'll go out on a limb and say that at least in the latter group, what is happening is not so much a push-pull but an emphasis on getting clamping force front-to-back.  In practical terms it means getting a typical C-clamp grip with the strong hand, but also getting the weak hand "behind the gun" on the backstrap so you can clamp with it as well.  And then making sure any inward pressure or torque is balanced.

 

The counterpoint is someone like Robert Vogel, who strongly advocates and emphasizes inward torque as a technique to control the gun.  

 

In the end, I think this falls under "more than one way to skin a cat".  I personally blend the styles to make my grip.  I build a C-clamp grip with the strong hand, and then get as high as possible on the gun with the weak hand, wedging the meaty part of my thumb into the remaining space on the backstrap, up near the beavertail.  I don't focus on pressure in any particular direction; in fact I conceptualize it as getting crushing pressure applied in the whole 360 degree circumference of the grip and getting as much of my hands on as much gripping area as possible.  The result is the strong hand providing most of the clamping force and the weak hand applying a significant amount of inward and downward force to control recoil.  It's not really neutral at all, more opposable, just from different vectors than front-to-back.  

 

 

 

 

[ArrDave]

22 hours ago, wtturn said:

 

 

 

A bunch of valid stuff

 

Hwansik and I believe Avery are getting their lateral force from turning their wrists in as a result of rolling their elbows out rather than imparting lateral force with their hands - that's my interpretation of that anyway. 

 

Having hit the range yesterday evening and a couple dryfire sessions I think I am more of a blend.  To my grip the push from locking out the wrists is very important from both arms, but so is having the "drumstick" of my support hand anchored to the side of the pistol - the result of that anchoring is pulling back on the front strap of the grip.  Still working on locking out the wrist on my support hand.  When I do it - it feels fantastic and the gun cycles like a boss but my support hand wrist is more difficult to lock out - for whatever reason than my strong hand wrist. 

[Boudreaux78]

Locking your support hand wrist at a downward forty five degree angle to help control the front strap which in turn keeps the barrel down. The pressure on the sides of the grip should be firm but not enough to make the trigger finger stiff. 

[Bunmaster]

Strengthening your weak hand will develop  a good grip.

[lgh]

On 11/14/2018 at 9:25 AM, ArrDave said:

So please - lay it on me - what are your thoughts on grip?

Whatever works for the shooter. Experiment to find out what works. There's a pretty big tool box of stuff to try out. But if ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

[wtturn]

Strengthening your weak hand will develop  a good grip.

Technique trumps strength. That's a whole other discussion.


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[ngodwetrust21]

On 11/14/2018 at 1:45 PM, wtturn said:

It is highly nuanced and it's hard to describe in first person to the extent that the listener can interpret exactly what tactile sensation is being felt.

 

I've listened to all those interviews multiple times myself and also have listened to your summary once.

 

From their firsthand descriptions, I think Yong and Grauffel are more alike and I think Hwansik and Ron Avery are more alike, with overlap throughout.

 

I think Yong and Grauffel are actually applying weaver-like push-pull forces front-to-back.  

 

I think Hwansik and Avery are applying clamping force front-to-back but not exclusive of lateral force.  

 

Hwansik actually describes applying lateral force, but specifically mentions that it must be balanced (or neutral) to avoid imparting a lateral bias in the sights or arc of recoil.

 

I'll go out on a limb and say that at least in the latter group, what is happening is not so much a push-pull but an emphasis on getting clamping force front-to-back.  In practical terms it means getting a typical C-clamp grip with the strong hand, but also getting the weak hand "behind the gun" on the backstrap so you can clamp with it as well.  And then making sure any inward pressure or torque is balanced.

 

The counterpoint is someone like Robert Vogel, who strongly advocates and emphasizes inward torque as a technique to control the gun.  

 

In the end, I think this falls under "more than one way to skin a cat".  I personally blend the styles to make my grip.  I build a C-clamp grip with the strong hand, and then get as high as possible on the gun with the weak hand, wedging the meaty part of my thumb into the remaining space on the backstrap, up near the beavertail.  I don't focus on pressure in any particular direction; in fact I conceptualize it as getting crushing pressure applied in the whole 360 degree circumference of the grip and getting as much of my hands on as much gripping area as possible.  The result is the strong hand providing most of the clamping force and the weak hand applying a significant amount of inward and downward force to control recoil.  It's not really neutral at all, more opposable, just from different vectors than front-to-back.  

 

 

 

 

 

Well said! Hard to summarize it any better than this.

 

I can tell you from my own experience that I used to think that it gripping the gun as hard as possible was the right way to grip the gun. Now that I have developed a bit more in the past year, I realize that the sights returning right back between the rear notch is just as important (if not more) than gripping the gun really hard. 

 

If the front sight is not returning to the center for the rear notch, whatever time was saved by having a strong grip is now waisted because you are having to realign the sights. If you don’t take that time to realign, you may have just dropped points depending on how far off the sight was when it settled.

 

I would also add that because of the way the A zone is laid out on an open USPSA target, the A zone is more forgiving to vertical movement of the sights than it is horizontal.

Edited November 18, 2018 by ngodwetrust21

[B585]

The one thing I would add that I heard Hwansik specifically say and goes with what Eric and Yong allude to is the importance of locking your joints.  Once the grip is strong enough that neither hand moves during recoil , the grips job is done.  Many people lock their joints when they grip harder which is why gripping harder may help.  If you can lock your joints without gripping near 100% it will help you keep dexterity and trigger control while still maintaining excellent recoil control.

[lgh]

3 hours ago, ngodwetrust21 said:

getting the weak hand "behind the gun" on the backstrap so you can clamp with it as well. 

I can't quite follow you here. There is no room on the backstrap once the strong hand is engaged.

[bird]

Brian's book shows a perfect picture of getting your left hand on the frame BEHIND the gun (top right picture on page 41)

If you don't have his book get it immediately..

 

Getting both hands (heels) behind the gun is key for me when it comes to recoil control.

I adjust my right hand so I can position my index finger to pull the trigger straight back (Brian Zins bullseye rh grip)

This leaves plenty of room for my left hand.

The stronger your hands are the less you have to crush the gun

Locking wrists also helps

[lgh]

2 hours ago, bird said:

Brian's book shows a perfect picture of getting your left hand on the frame BEHIND the gun (top right picture on page 41)

Thanks Bird. Had the book for a long time. What you see in the top picture is not what you see on the bottom. Try putting your weak hand in the position of the top picture and then try to fit your strong hand in there. It won't work. Conversely, get a grip with your strong hand and then try to get your hand in there like he shows in the top picture. It won't work. The heels of your hands should butt against each other, but they both won't fit on the backstrap as suggested, at least not for me. They form a wrap.

 

Given all the discussion about grip, I enjoyed re-reading Brain's description of his grip.

 

[lgh]

I had this link lying around for a long time. Some of you might remember it. I actually printed part of it out a long time ago because it is interesting and relevant to grip. Specifically, I refer to the posts of Jshuberg. He/she talks about symmetric grip. I do not take that to mean perceived symmetry. That is, some, like me, grip harder with the support hand but that does not imply asymmetry. If my support hand is weaker than my strong hand, I will perceive gripping harder with support but what I am actually doing is making them equal. The gist of it all is to just control the bounce. It's going to bounce! Anyway, here it is. Let me know if the link doesn't work.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by lgh

[ArrDave]

Fascinating post.  And no doubt many ways are successful for some. Loved the first part of ArrDave's video, except that when he went to demonstrate he didnt do what the experts said.

 

I would love it if you could expand on this - in my view from the extended pod casts I believe I am barking up the right tree. All of those interviews were for any gun- not just gas pedals.




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[kneelingatlas]

This is a slight aside, but I'm not a fan of using the words "correct" or "proper" when describing matters of preference; there are indeed different ways to skin a cat (as evidenced by EG and BV, two of the top shooters in the world using wildly different techniques).

 

If all you had to do way read the book and run the formula, this sport wouldn't be very interesting would it?

[bird]

On 11/19/2018 at 12:57 PM, lgh said:

Thanks Bird. Had the book for a long time. What you see in the top picture is not what you see on the bottom. Try putting your weak hand in the position of the top picture and then try to fit your strong hand in there. It won't work. Conversely, get a grip with your strong hand and then try to get your hand in there like he shows in the top picture. It won't work. The heels of your hands should butt against each other, but they both won't fit on the backstrap as suggested, at least not for me. They form a wrap.

 

Given all the discussion about grip, I enjoyed re-reading Brain's description of his grip.

 

My weak hand is in the exact position as the top picture and I adjust my rh to fit accordingly

I also use thick grips on my 1911 to get the same feel as a 2011.

There is no right or wrong grip

Only the right grip that works for you.

Your body really does sort all this out with a lot of dry & live fire.

[Boudreaux78]

TPC instructor Ken Nelson posted a video the other day on Facebook specifically talking about techniques and less powerful grips. It’s a good video. I couldn’t find the link to post or would have. 

[JohnS23]

I experimented last weekend shooting over 800 rounds. I would say the results were very surprising.

 

I went from Bob Vogel’s death grip to almost no grip. Suprisingly, my gun flipped more as I gripped the pistol harder. My hands were constantly breaking as I increased pressure. 

 

Having said that, I held the gun like I would hold on to a bar while standing on a subway. Very neutral. No added squeeze whatsoever. Along with this grip (hand pressure) I straightened my arms out, not bent, without locking but extended and applied a firm push/pull. Not too intense either, just enough for my palms to be in contact.. 

 

In short, my very relaxed grip without squeezing, with a bit of push/pull, arms extended out, made my gun flip less than when I gripped it really hard.

 

[sigarms80]

See if the strong hand thumb position gives you a relative advantage in muscle contraction of the forearm.  For example, notice that when the thumb of the strong hand grip is pointing toward the target (parallel with the slide) there is a certain amount of tension in the forearm.  Next, point the thumb of the strong hand vertically upward (similar to signaling a thumbs up to somebody) and notice the change in tension of the forearm and particularly of the palm and lower fingers.  It seems than a vertically oriented thumb strengthens the muscle activation in the forearm.

[elguapo]

Y'all need to quit that target shooting grip...the sheriff says so

 

https://youtu.be/bGoj0w0YEK0