What if timer doesn't pick up all shots fired?

[George Jones]

It's called a "timer", not a "shot counter".

Last shot is the most important.

Best effort should be made to get all shots in case of a violation/malfunction/squib situation.

Split times may be useful in subtracting an invalid recording of an ejected brass (poor RO technique involved here) because it is still a time value.

 

Basic split time values (based on my personal experience):

FAST double tap - between 0.10 to 0.12

Gun that doubles - 0.05 to 0.07

Echo - 0.01 to 0.02 depending on conditions

 

Shot count is irrelevant.

[alexmg]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:58 PM, euxx said:

 

Last shot counts for score, but this rule doesn't say that the only last shot must be recorded and it doesn't say that no other shouts must not be recorded. As I said, keeping of recording everything in between start and stop, provides better *official* evidence to help make better decisions by RO, CRO, RM and Arbitration committee. Unless, of course, you are deliberately defending current situation when such evidence is thrown away.

To this point, we had great results running AMG Lab's timer tonight and tested remote start functionality that allows timer to be started remotely from PractiScore app, which allowed all shots to be picked up by the timer while maintaining safe distance between shooter and RO and allowing unobstructed passage from first to second set of targets. So while it is obviously important to get the last shot on the timer, it simply adds to the confidence to see all of them (in this case) or most of them (in some other cases) being picked up. 

https://youtu.be/e6ElU-7wO2c

Edited October 31, 2018 by alexmg

[mwc]

9 hours ago, alexmg said:

To this point, we had great results running AMG Lab's timer tonight and tested remote start functionality that allows timer to be started remotely from PractiScore app, which allowed all shots to be picked up by the timer while maintaining safe distance between shooter and RO and allowing unobstructed passage from first to second set of targets. So while it is obviously important to get the last shot on the timer, it simply adds to the confidence to see all of them (in this case) or most of them (in some other cases) being picked up. 

https://youtu.be/e6ElU-7wO2c

 

I like the bluetooth feature.  It would be beneficial in my opinion, if the shooter could wear a timer that was run by the scoring tablet.  The RO could then have both hands free and could focus entirely on the shooter.

[Diver123]

I know this is an old thread but I want to point out something I didn't see mentioned. I disagree that its the last shot only that matters. If during the coarse of fire the competitors gun breaks, or something occurs that prevents them from finishing, you now don't have an accurate time to put down. Now they are gonna get a reshoot because you didn't get their times. 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, Diver123 said:

I know this is an old thread but I want to point out something I didn't see mentioned. I disagree that its the last shot only that matters. If during the coarse of fire the competitors gun breaks, or something occurs that prevents them from finishing, you now don't have an accurate time to put down. Now they are gonna get a reshoot because you didn't get their times. 

Well sure, but that's because you didn['t get the last shot.... it's the last shot fired that matters, not the last target in the stage. 

 

I would also make the case that if you miss the last shot, but the competitor has to quit while leaving enough targets that the mikes and FTSA's would cause a score of zero, then it doesn't really matter whether the time is accurate, the score will be accurate regardless. I can see some rifle shooter trying to argue that one tho.

Edited January 16, 2019 by motosapiens

[IVC]

There is nothing to argue if the last shot is not picked up and the score is zero - the score can only be lower if more shots are picked up...

[IHAVEGAS]

In most  circumstances there is a reshoot if either time or hits can not be attained accurately. Whether or not this is a lucky break for the shooter is not a consideration. I do not see a "yeah but it is zero anyway" exception to point to but if there is one I would like to be aware of it. 

[IVC]

The sentence that deals with reshoots in 9.10.1 starts with "If a timing device is faulty..." so if someone requested a reshoot after obviously zeroing a stage (trying to play the rules on a technicality), I would counter that the timing device is not faulty (also a technicality). Further, "not picking up the last shot" is something that the competitor cannot know since he does not have access to the display of the timer until after "the range is clear," so there is no practical way for a competitor to even make a claim that the time wasn't recorded correctly unless the time was zero (which is why the rule 9.10.1 exists). 

[bret]

You never know when or where the last shot will be, it isn't hard to make sure you are getting the shots picked up.

 

If you miss a squib, it doesn't matter because that isn't the last shot fired,  the one before it was.

Edited January 17, 2019 by bret

[bret]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

The sentence that deals with reshoots in 9.10.1 starts with "If a timing device is faulty..." so if someone requested a reshoot after obviously zeroing a stage (trying to play the rules on a technicality), I would counter that the timing device is not faulty (also a technicality). Further, "not picking up the last shot" is something that the competitor cannot know since he does not have access to the display of the timer until after "the range is clear," so there is no practical way for a competitor to even make a claim that the time wasn't recorded correctly unless the time was zero (which is why the rule 9.10.1 exists). 

If you don't have the correct accurate time,  it is a re shoot, not because of a faulty timer but because of incorrect time.

 

stage score has nothing to do with it.

[IHAVEGAS]

12 minutes ago, bret said:

it isn't hard to make sure you are getting the shots picked up.

 

Apparently you did not read much of this thread. It can be very impratical to even try.

 

 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, bret said:

If you don't have the correct accurate time,  it is a re shoot, not because of a faulty timer but because of incorrect time.

 

Nor per 9.10.1, so we are likely not talking about the same rule. What rule did you have in mind?

[motosapiens]

9.10.1 says "if a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage."

 

That does not appear to apply to a case where the timing device is not faulty, but simply didn't pick up a shot.

 

right below that 9.10.3

A competitor who reacts to a start signal but for any reason does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officer will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire.

 

Is it plausible to suggest that a competitor who does not continue the attempt (because of broken gun or whatever) would fall under 9.10.3?

 

It seems reasonable to me that you might be able to get away with one if you have a breakage and the last shots were not recorded but there were only a few targets left, so the time would actually have an effect on the score. But if the score is only going to be zero anyway, I see no reason to lose sleep over a few seconds of time that has no effect whatsoever on the score.

Edited January 17, 2019 by motosapiens

[Bosshoss]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

9.10.1 says "if a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage."

 

That does not appear to apply to a case where the timing device is not faulty, but simply didn't pick up a shot.

 

right below that 9.10.3

A competitor who reacts to a start signal but for any reason does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officer will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire.

 

Is it plausible to suggest that a competitor who does not continue the attempt (because of broken gun or whatever) would fall under 9.10.3?

 

It seems reasonable to me that you might be able to get away with one if you have a breakage and the last shots were not recorded but there were only a few targets left, so the time would actually have an effect on the score. But if the score is only going to be zero anyway, I see no reason to lose sleep over a few seconds of time that has no effect whatsoever on the score.

If the timer does not pick up the last shot I would argue that the timer was indeed faulty. 

If the time is not correct it is a reshoot. 

[motosapiens]

31 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

If the timer does not pick up the last shot I would argue that the timer was indeed faulty. 

If the time is not correct it is a reshoot. 

 

you would argue incorrectly, at least by the literal rule. the timer is fine, the RO was just not able to safely be in position for the shot to count. Not at all unusual.

 

and from a competitive equity standpoint, how do we justify penalizing everyone else in the match over a technicality because the shooter gets a zero but argues that he should have a zero but with a different time? Why screw over everyone else by giving out freebies?

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

If the timer does not pick up the last shot I would argue that the timer was indeed faulty. 

If the time is not correct it is a reshoot. 

 

It's similar to popper calibration - just because it doesn't fall it doesn't mean it's faulty. Instead, it goes to calibration and if the calibration passes, the popper is scored as a miss. There is no such calibration for timers and not picking up a shot doesn't make them faulty. We are talking about industry standard timers with industry standard sensitivity. 

 

The timer rules are there to prevent obviously incorrect times from being recorded, not to provide a loophole for reshoot. If anyone tries to use it as a loophole, they have to expect to get a pushback with the strict and literal reading of the rules which would let them keep the score they earned. Why are we even debating this? 

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, IVC said:

 Why are we even debating this? 

 

johnny cochran range lawyers....

 

If the glove fits not, you must score as shot!

[egd5]

^^^ lol

[Out of Ammo]

^^^^ Bingo!

[IHAVEGAS]

17 hours ago, IVC said:

 

The timer rules are there to prevent obviously incorrect times from being recorded, not to provide a loophole for reshoot. If anyone tries to use it as a loophole, they have to expect to get a pushback with the strict and literal reading of the rules which would let them keep the score they earned. Why are we even debating this? 

As an r.o. you are supposed to follow the rules, no personal philosophy and no arbitrary decisions and no pushback if the rules are in favor of a shooter. I think this is true in most sports, if a player or coach understands the details it is to their benefit.

[IVC]

I do follow the rules. The rule says: "If a timing device is faulty, ...," so if the timing device is NOT faulty the rest of the rule doesn't apply and therefore no reshoot is granted. It's not arbitrary, it's very literal. Actually, to allow a reshoot when the timing device is not faulty would be "personal philosophy." 

[George Jones]

 in that caseSome of the opinions on this thread need to consider the first two sentences in Rule 9.7.4 --- If the RO knows he does not have the correct time, such as due to not picking up the last shot, then that time/score cannot possibly be conclusive.  Timer malfunction (a mechanical or electronic failure) is not relevant in that scenario.

Edited January 18, 2019 by George Jones

[IHAVEGAS]

22 minutes ago, IVC said:

I do follow the rules. The rule says: "If a timing device is faulty, ...," so if the timing device is NOT faulty the rest of the rule doesn't apply and therefore no reshoot is granted. It's not arbitrary, it's very literal. Actually, to allow a reshoot when the timing device is not faulty would be "personal philosophy." 

 

Sorry. Should have read closer. 

[Bosshoss]

I haven't been called a "range Lawyer" before but if that makes you feel better go for it.

What I tried to say before was if the last shot wasn't picked up then the timer either isn't working correctly or RO wasn't close enough to get the last shot. Either way you can't record a incorrect time no matter what the reason. Does it suck that they get a reshoot yeah but it happens.

This is the way I was taught and way I have done it for a long time.

I will say that the quite PCC's have added to the challenge as you have to be within 2 or 3 feet of the muzzle to record the last shot.

 

This has nothing to do with Popper calibration and don't even know why that was brought up.

 

Someone Zeroing a stage has nothing to do with the original post. 

 

I don't make the rules.

I don't make up rules.

I just RO and try to the best of my abilities to make sure that everyone has a safe and fun match by the rules as I know them and understand them.

 

Thanks George for posting Rule 9.7.4

Edited January 19, 2019 by Bosshoss

[MHicks]

Shooter is having the stage of his life, RO closely watching the timer at the end of the stage, shooter fires his last two shots, last shot doesn't register. Reshoot with no complaints?