What if timer doesn't pick up all shots fired?

[RJH]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Do I need to save for the Les Baer 40 I always wanted or just give up on the notion and be practical?

 

(I.e. nothing is going to change with timers so might as well think about fun stuff). 

 

 

GO for the Baer!!

[euxx]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Which timer?  And how do we know it is correct , the one shot with a .13 split looks suspicious (like maybe the timer got bumped or a shot was picked up from another stage) when all the other splits were .10-.15 slower?  Unless the .13 shot was an AD and you should have been DQed...

 

Now it is making you think and just recently it been said we should trust RO's word more than any timer's recording. How do you know all other timers are correct? Especially ones picking up their own beep...

 

PS: you need to re-read a glossary definition of AD in the rule book, before you try to hand a DQ on someone

[RJH]

7 hours ago, euxx said:

 

Now it is making you think and just recently it been said we should trust RO's word more than any timer's recording. How do you know all other timers are correct? Especially ones picking up their own beep...

 

PS: you need to re-read a glossary definition of AD in the rule book, before you try to hand a DQ on someone

 

 

Yes we should trust the ROs, and like it or not you should trust timers too.   Basically you have to trust someone and since 99.999% of ROs are trustworthy and 99.999% of timers get the last shot correct, and there are procedures in case that does not happen (and yes the last shot is the only one that matters), your argument is kind of pointless.

 

PS: I know the glossary pretty well, was just making a point that trying to look ONLY the shots counted on a timer could lead to the wrong conclusions, which is why an RO and a timer in conjunction work very well, and is not nearly the problem a very few people seem to think it is.....

[euxx]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Yes we should trust the ROs, and like it or not you should trust timers too.   Basically you have to trust someone and since 99.999% of ROs are trustworthy and 99.999% of timers get the last shot correct, and there are procedures in case that does not happen (and yes the last shot is the only one that matters), your argument is kind of pointless.

 

Didn't you guys just said "most your timers" can't pickup shots correctly (missing shots, picking up their own beeps, etc), yet you trust them. Basically you are making assumptions because you don't know any better and timer is not letting you know or making it too hard or to long to get better idea or ROs not bothering to check it because they have other things to do at the stage. And after RO pushed a button all evidence is gone. How can you trust that those timers didn't picked up that last shot extra 10 times?

 

But as soon as I showed you more data - you immediately started to look for discrepancies... The full shot recording allows for such analysis after the fact and decisions can be made with more data than just ROs word that he captured time accurately. In my observations many, many of the ROs don't bother to look at the timer or holding it away from the shooter, so no, I can't say 99.999% ROs are trustworthy.

 

1 hour ago, RJH said:

PS: I know the glossary pretty well, was just making a point that trying to look ONLY the shots counted on a timer could lead to the wrong conclusions, which is why an RO and a timer in conjunction work very well, and is not nearly the problem a very few people seem to think it is.....

 

See! You already looking at the timer's ALL recorded shots (recorded and saved a week ago), vs taking an ROs word for it.

 

 

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Didn't you guys just said "most your timers" can't pickup shots correctly (missing shots, picking up their own beeps, etc), yet you trust them. Basically you are making assumptions because you don't know any better and timer is not letting you know or making it too hard or to long to get better idea or ROs not bothering to check it because they have other things to do at the stage. And after RO pushed a button all evidence is gone. How can you trust that those timers didn't picked up that last shot extra 10 times?

 

But as soon as I showed you more data - you immediately started to look for discrepancies... The full shot recording allows for such analysis after the fact and decisions can be made with more data than just ROs word that he captured time accurately. In my observations many, many of the ROs don't bother to look at the timer or holding it away from the shooter, so no, I can't say 99.999% ROs are trustworthy.

 

 

See! You already looking at the timer's ALL recorded shots (recorded and saved a week ago), vs taking an ROs word for it.

 

 

 

So after every shooter we need to sit down and double check with at least three timers  and with three ROs,  because you can't possibly trust just one, got it......

[alexmg]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

which is why an RO and a timer in conjunction work very well

 

A quote from most recent Practiscore Dev Blog post:

It also adds Bluetooth link for Competition Electronics ProChrono and AMG Lab Shot timer.

 

Just like Eugene mentioned above, it opens a door into new possibilities in score keeping, getting your entire string from the timer into log then and there. It can be visualized, can be studied later, etc. 

 

[euxx]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

So after every shooter we need to sit down and double check with at least three timers  and with three ROs,  because you can't possibly trust just one, got it......

 

You don't have to. But, unlike before, the arbitration committee (or CRO, or RM) can review data to see if it can back ROs story and make decision based on an existing evidence.

Edited October 25, 2018 by euxx

[JAFO]

The major hole in that I see in your theory is that you're assuming only the required number of shots get fired, or that the same number are fired from one shooter to the next.  You're worried about not all shots being recorded, but at the same time having a time that's too long because of extra shots being recorded that didn't happen.  Outside of Virginia Count and Fixed Time, people are often going to fire more than the required number of shots, especially if there are steel targets and/or movers.  I've seen new guys in Limited empty two mags at a Texas Star before they finally got all the plates or just moved on.  It's not feasible to assume RO's will be counting your cumulative shots throughout a CoF and then compare that to the number of shots on the timer.

 

And, according to this, your auxiliary shot timer wouldn't be allowed as evidence, since it's effectively an audio recording of the stage.

11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or other evidence pending the hearing. Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by JAFO

[RJH]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

The major hole in that I see in your theory is that you're assuming only the required number of shots get fired, or that the same number are fired from one shooter to the next.  You're worried about not all shots being recorded, but at the same time having a time that's too long because of extra shots being recorded that didn't happen.  Outside of Virginia Count and Fixed Time, people are often going to fire more than the required number of shots, especially if there are steel targets and/or movers.  I've seen new guys in Limited empty two mags at a Texas Star before they finally got all the plates or just moved on.  It's not feasible to assume RO's will be counting your cumulative shots throughout a CoF and then compare that to the number of shots on the timer.

 

And, according to this, your auxiliary shot timer wouldn't be allowed as evidence, since it's effectively an audio recording of the stage.

11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or other evidence pending the hearing. Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence.

 

100percent 

 

@eeux I guess i am just having a very hard time seeing any of this as a real issue, and am having a hard time taking you seriously 

[pjb45]

Do you have field courses?  Keeping in lock step with the competitor can be challenging.  Keeping with Nils, Nic, Leighton, Max Michel, Todd, Robbie can cause the RO not to record every shot.

My JP PCC is actually quite quiet.  The timer can not record every shot without RO interference.

Even at Tuesday Night Steel the timer does not pick up every shot.  

 

It is unrealistic to expect a RO/Timer to record every shot, only the last one is needed.

 

 

[Thomas H]

10 hours ago, euxx said:

 

Didn't you guys just said "most your timers" can't pickup shots correctly (missing shots, picking up their own beeps, etc), yet you trust them. Basically you are making assumptions because you don't know any better and timer is not letting you know or making it too hard or to long to get better idea or ROs not bothering to check it because they have other things to do at the stage. And after RO pushed a button all evidence is gone. How can you trust that those timers didn't picked up that last shot extra 10 times?

 

Your first sentence conflates two different types of issues, and then attempts to use those issues on a third topic.  And it just doesn't work that way.

 

Most timers WON'T pick up all shots on a stage unless the RO manages to be in the right position to pick up everything on that stage no matter where/how the competitor moves, and does so while NOT picking up any shots from a different stage or from anything bumping the timer.  That is one issue.  (And it isn't an important one, since none of the mid-stage shots matter, only the last one does.)

 

Picking up their own beeps is a sensitivity and lock-out matter, and is a different issue.  (And it isn't an important one, because the first shot time therefore reads a number that occurs faster than the competitor has drawn, so it is obviously not a shot, and it doesn't affect the timer's ability to record later shots.)

 

And NEITHER one of those things have anything to do with the ability to verify that the final time on the timer was the last shot fired---because the last shot fired being caught by the timer is easily verified by the RO having the timer's readout up in his/her field of view during the last shot and after so the RO's peripheral vision catches the fact that the timer readout changed on the last shot.

 

If the argument is "the timer should pick up all shots and the reading is invalid if it doesn't!" then that argument fails because the rulebook itself only requires the final shot time to be accurate.  If you want to change that requirement to be "all shots must be picked up by the timer" that's fine, but you'll need to literally come up with a different way to time people, because the current timer set and stage design means that not all shots will be picked up.  Are you thinking that the timer should be clipped to the competitor or something?  (I'll note that RF timers when hooked to things like the Big Board from CED occasionally drop mid-run shots and don't show them, and that's on stages in Steel Challenge matches where there is no movement and the timer is kept in an optimal position the entire time.  In other words, I'm not sure the tech right now will support any change to a "all shots must be counted!" requirement in the rules.)

And since at the moment there isn't any such requirement, the timer, when monitored correctly by the RO, does exactly what it is supposed to do---which is acccurately record the time of the last shot.  As such, this statement:  "Basically you are making assumptions because you don't know any better and timer is not letting you know or making it too hard or to long to get better idea or ROs not bothering to check it because they have other things to do at the stage." ....makes no sense, as the RO can verify that last shot easily.

 

I'll note I'm perfectly good with additional data to use for practice purposes.   That's separate from whether or not the argument made by euxx was logical---and it wasn't.


 

[Bosshoss]

If you are not getting all the shots on the timer during a run then a competitor has a run ending malfunction or squib mid run then they will get a reshoot because their won't be a accurate time on the timer. I have already heard stories of PCC shooters doing this when a run starts out badly, although I don't know anyone that has done it????

[euxx]

6 hours ago, JAFO said:

And, according to this, your auxiliary shot timer wouldn't be allowed as evidence, since it's effectively an audio recording of the stage.

11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or other evidence pending the hearing. Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence.

 

Since you're going on a leap with calling timer an audio recording device, I'm going to quote 9.10.1

 

9.10 Official Time

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor’s attempt at a course of fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

[euxx]

3 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Do you have field courses?  Keeping in lock step with the competitor can be challenging.  Keeping with Nils, Nic, Leighton, Max Michel, Todd, Robbie can cause the RO not to record every shot.

My JP PCC is actually quite quiet.  The timer can not record every shot without RO interference.

Even at Tuesday Night Steel the timer does not pick up every shot.  

 

It is unrealistic to expect a RO/Timer to record every shot, only the last one is needed.

 

Which timer exactly are you referring to? Just so, I can put it into my list of not-to-use timers...

[euxx]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

100percent 

@eeux I guess i am just having a very hard time seeing any of this as a real issue, and am having a hard time taking you seriously 

 

Did you take the infamous USPSA RO issue seriously from couple years back? Ironically video evidence had been used to kick him out. Having an official timer device with complete recording of competitor's times would have prevented it from the beginning. Back in a day, they used stop-watches to record stage times and also didn't see that as a real issue...

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Did you take the infamous USPSA RO issue seriously from couple years back? Ironically video evidence had been used to kick him out. Having an official timer device with complete recording of competitor's times would have prevented it from the beginning. Back in a day, they used stop-watches to record stage times and also didn't see that as a real issue...

 

 

unless you are making and USPSA is requiring the use of an infallible timer your points are moot.  and no, a slap of a timer or covering the pickup could have added or subtracted time, cheaters going to cheat.  Do you honestly think that there are that many dishonest ROs?  Maybe we should just do away with timers and use a start button and stop plate?

[teros135]

40 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Since you're going on a leap with calling timer an audio recording device, I'm going to quote 9.10.1

 

9.10 Official Time

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor’s attempt at a course of fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

 

Yes, and the highlighted text clearly specifies that the *elapsed time of a competitor's attempt* at a COF must be recorded.  Not splits, transitions, reloads, malfunctions, etc. 

 

Like everyone has been saying ... it's the last shot that counts. 

[euxx]

16 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Yes, and the highlighted text clearly specifies that the *elapsed time of a competitor's attempt* at a COF must be recorded.  Not splits, transitions, reloads, malfunctions, etc. 

 

Like everyone has been saying ... it's the last shot that counts. 

 

Last shot counts for score, but this rule doesn't say that the only last shot must be recorded and it doesn't say that no other shouts must not be recorded. As I said, keeping of recording everything in between start and stop, provides better *official* evidence to help make better decisions by RO, CRO, RM and Arbitration committee. Unless, of course, you are deliberately defending current situation when such evidence is thrown away.

Edited October 26, 2018 by euxx

[motosapiens]

with current technology and stage designs, it is imho not possible to be certain that you record every shot 100% of the time.

 

OTOH, it is very much possible to make sure you either record the last few shots accurately (because you can see the timer as the shooter is shooting), or that you did NOT record the last few shots so a reshoot is required.

 

I don't know  how many major matches Eugene has worked, but I know he is a very smart guy, so I suspect if he worked a few majors, some of the things the rest of us are saying might not need to be said. After you run the timer on a few thousand people, you learn some things about timers and guns and stages and so forth. Sometimes (in the case of certain national champions), you learn something about a shooter's integrity as well.  

[euxx]

I never said all shots must be recorded. But I did say that all shots that were recorded should be saved as recorded and available for reviewing by the match officials and competitors. Not all stage designs have that issue with competitor positioning or movement you been referring to and in my experience both as an RO who worked several National championships and bunch of Level 3s and as a competitor who shot bunch of National and several World shoots, I've seen it all, good and bad from both sides of the fence and in many cases it was pretty much ended with he say she say...

[JAFO]

I think you are introducing as many uncertainties as you would be trying to eliminate by having a recording of all "shots" to use at Arbitration.  How does the Arb committee, who may or may not have been there to witness the run, going to know that all the times reported actually came from shots fired, or that all the shots were, in fact, recorded.  Distance, props, body positioning, etc, can all play into not being sure you have all the shots.  A bump of the timer against a wall as the RO gets out of the way mid-run could cause a "shot" that wasn't a shot.

 

Good technique from the RO in watching the timer on the last few shots can help mitigate the problem you had when you were wrongly credited with +2 seconds on your run.  Aside from that, until they allow synchronized video/timer evidence, I think what you are asking for (all shots recorded shot data being saved) won't truly produce what you're after (being able to backtrack through a run to argue a penalty or time dispute).

[JAFO]

16 hours ago, euxx said:

 

Since you're going on a leap with calling timer an audio recording device, I'm going to quote 9.10.1

 

9.10 Official Time

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor’s attempt at a course of fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

 

I don't think it's a leap.  Timers may not record actual audio, but they all record shots based on audible sound, including the RO's timer.  I'm only pointing out that 3rd party recordings aren't submissible in an Arbitration.  The Arb committee has no way to know whether the list of recorded shot times someone might produce from their timer were from the run in question (as opposed to another shooter in the squad who may be sharing the timer), or whether the timer or recording software have been altered.

[euxx]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

I think you are introducing as many uncertainties as you would be trying to eliminate by having a recording of all "shots" to use at Arbitration.  How does the Arb committee, who may or may not have been there to witness the run, going to know that all the times reported actually came from shots fired, or that all the shots were, in fact, recorded. 

 

o one is suggesting that arbitration committee won't be listening to ROs story. But it is not any different from RO looking at the timer while standing in the middle of the stage on a clock.

 

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

I think you are introducing as many uncertainties as you would be trying to eliminate by having a recording of all "shots" to use at Arbitration.  How does the Arb committee, who may or may not have been there to witness the run, going to know that all the times reported actually came from shots fired, or that all the shots were, in fact, recorded.  Distance, props, body positioning, etc, can all play into not being sure you have all the shots.  A bump of the timer against a wall as the RO gets out of the way mid-run could cause a "shot" that wasn't a shot.

 

We are back to the same point that you trust RO who might or might not heard all the shots right, vs. timing device that might not have recorded all shots.

 

Personally I have more faith in the timer than RO. Looking at the entire shot sequence recorded by an official timing device you can see certain patterns - cadence, time between splits, times for reloads/movements/change of position. Now hypothetically, shooters moves into position, shoots an array of 4 targets with 2 rounds each and moves to another position. RO were staying at the same spot for an entire sequence and he says shooter shots 9 rounds from that position, yet timers shows splits like this for the above sequence: ... 2.5 0.2 0.3 0.2 0.3 0.2 0.3 0.3 4.2 ...

Are you still taking an ROs work on that 9th shot that doesn't show up in the recording?

 

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

Good technique from the RO in watching the timer on the last few shots can help mitigate the problem you had when you were wrongly credited with +2 seconds on your run.  Aside from that, until they allow synchronized video/timer evidence, I think what you are asking for (all shots recorded shot data being saved) won't truly produce what you're after (being able to backtrack through a run to argue a penalty or time dispute).

 

Now we are talking RO techniques. But if you think about it, even without watching timer you can came to the same conclusion after looking at the recorded final shot time sequence like ... 0.15 0.15 0.15 2.0.

 

But the last part of your statement is a rule interpretations. To me, as long as recorded time comes from an official device, it is no different from the stage RO looking at a previous or second last shot in the timer after "if clear hammer down and holster" command at the end of the stage. I suppose you can request NROID comment on that to get an official position.

[euxx]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

I don't think it's a leap.  Timers may not record actual audio, but they all record shots based on audible sound, including the RO's timer. 

 

If we follow your logic - no official time could be used for arbitration, because it came from a sound recording device.

 

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

I'm only pointing out that 3rd party recordings aren't submissible in an Arbitration.  The Arb committee has no way to know whether the list of recorded shot times someone might produce from their timer were from the run in question (as opposed to another shooter in the squad who may be sharing the timer), or whether the timer or recording software have been altered.

 

I don't know where that idea of 3rd party recordings came from. For the whole time I was referring to time as recorded by official timer used at the stage and even shown an example of such recording in the official scores review:

 

[tdp88]

It doesn’t matter if it picks up all shots, just that it gets the final shot.


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