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JZELEK

What if timer doesn't pick up all shots fired?

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If the shot timer doesn't pick up all shots fired (say missing 17 of them on a 32 round count stage) and the shooter believes that the final time recorded is wrong because of a faulty timer should he/she be given a re shoot?

 

 

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There is this rule:

 

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to
record the official elapsed time of a competitor’s attempt at a course of
fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be
credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

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How do you know its the last shot if the timer didn't pick up all of them?

 

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The only shot that actually maters is the last one.  Having all picked up every time is a virtual impossibility, because of stage design.  When ROing you simple glance at the timer as the last shot is fired to make sure it is picked up.  

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So you

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

The only shot that actually maters is the last one.  Having all picked up every time is a virtual impossibility, because of stage design.  When ROing you simple glance at the timer as the last shot is fired to make sure it is picked up.  

So hypothetically in a 32 round count stage that if only 1 shot is picked up on the timer that is the final time?

How does the RO know that 1 shot was the final shot fired by the competitor?

Edited by JZELEK

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Just now, JZELEK said:

So you

So your saying in a 32 round count stage that if only 1 shot is picked up on the timer that is the final time?

 

 

If the RO sees that it is the last shot recorded,  then yes.  If the last shot was fired and the RO was a distance from the shooter (fast shooter, slow RO)  and  cant be sure that the last shot was picked up then no.  It is not rocket science, many times on a stage with walls, etc. where there is space between the RO and the shooter a timer will not get every shot, especially with PCCs, so when the shooter nears their final position the RO should give a glance at the timer to make sure the last shots are being recorded

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3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

 

If the RO sees that it is the last shot recorded,  then yes.  If the last shot was fired and the RO was a distance from the shooter (fast shooter, slow RO)  and  cant be sure that the last shot was picked up then no.  It is not rocket science, many times on a stage with walls, etc. where there is space between the RO and the shooter a timer will not get every shot, especially with PCCs, so when the shooter nears their final position the RO should give a glance at the timer to make sure the last shots are being recorded

If all shots can not be counted accurately by the timer It seams that this rule applies.

 

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to
record the official elapsed time of a competitor’s attempt at a course of
fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be
credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

 

There is no rule that states the RO should give a glance at the timer before the last shot is fired by the competitor.

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Just now, JZELEK said:

If all shots can not be counted accurately by the timer It seams that this rule applies.

 

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to
record the official elapsed time of a competitor’s attempt at a course of
fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be
credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

 

There is no rule that states the RO should give a glance at the timer before the last shot is fired by the competitor.

 

 

So how much ROing have you done? and do you always check to make sure that the correct number of shots fired correlate with the timer?  On a 20 shot course do you count the shots while the shooter is shooting (like if the shooter had some makeups and actually shot 24)  and make sure that the timer jives with your head count?  There are too many variables for timers to 100 percent pick up every shot fired, when i took my RO class pretty sure this was discussed.  Every possible thing that can possibly happen on a course cannot possibly be accounted for in a rule book, so some common sense has to be applied.  As long as the last shot fired is counted then that is all that matters, if a timer picks up the last fired then it is not faulty.  

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3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

So how much ROing have you done? and do you always check to make sure that the correct number of shots fired correlate with the timer?  On a 20 shot course do you count the shots while the shooter is shooting (like if the shooter had some makeups and actually shot 24)  and make sure that the timer jives with your head count?  There are too many variables for timers to 100 percent pick up every shot fired, when i took my RO class pretty sure this was discussed.  Every possible thing that can possibly happen on a course cannot possibly be accounted for in a rule book, so some common sense has to be applied.  As long as the last shot fired is counted then that is all that matters, if a timer picks up the last fired then it is not faulty.  

Not trying to argue with you, I am looking for answer to a question.

Please state the rule in the rule book that allows RO's to judge when the last shot was fired when the timer did not pick up all shots and the competitor believes the shot timer is faulty?

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.

Edited by RJH

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29 minutes ago, JZELEK said:

Not trying to argue with you, I am looking for answer to a question.

Please state the rule in the rule book that allows RO's to judge when the last shot was fired when the timer did not pick up all shots and the competitor believes the shot timer is faulty?

I think you are trying to argue, i think you probably shot a bad stage and wanted a reshoot, you might have even deserved  the reshoot, i wasn't there.  Please state the rule that says EVERY shot fired has to be picked up or the timer is faulty, and also please state the rule that tells who is counting shots to VERIFY that the timer picked up all shots fired.

 

9.10.1 that you quoted only states that the timer must record an accurate time for the shooter, all shots  fired are not required for an accurate time, only the last shot fired.  It states that you need the elapsed time, not the time of every shot recorded.

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It's called a timer, not a shot counter.  The only one that matters is the last one.

 

However, we don't know when the last shot might happen, so it's important to try to get them all.  Experienced ROs adjust the timer position to account for those situations which might result in a missed shot.

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19 minutes ago, George Jones said:

It's called a timer, not a shot counter.  The only one that matters is the last one.

 

However, we don't know when the last shot might happen, so it's important to try to get them all.  Experienced ROs adjust the timer position to account for those situations which might result in a missed shot.

 

 

100%

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Not trying to argue with you, I am looking for answer to a question.
Please state the rule in the rule book that allows RO's to judge when the last shot was fired when the timer did not pick up all shots and the competitor believes the shot timer is faulty?
If you take the RO and more specifically the CRO class you'll find there is gray area in the rulebook that must be navigated. Not everything is spelled out in black and white.

In this instance part of being the RO is monitoring the timer near the end to help insure an accurate time. Everything between the beep and the last shot is fairly irrelevant. I almost never bother keeping the timer up on top of a shooter during a stage until their last position.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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A good RO gets the timer out in front of them as the stage is wrapping up so they can see it change in their peripheral vision.

 

There is no requirement to pick up every shot. As noted above there are reasons the RO may not be close to the shooter for the whole stage. PCCs are sometimes very difficult to pick up unless you're crowding the shooter.

 

Some of us are better at ROing than others. Like it or not, there is a human element in refereeing this game. Other sports are no different. You ever argue balls and strikes?

 

 

 

 

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If you take the RO and more specifically the CRO class you'll find there is gray area in the rulebook that must be navigated. Not everything is spelled out in black and white.

In this instance part of being the RO is monitoring the timer near the end to help insure an accurate time. Everything between the beep and the last shot is fairly irrelevant. I almost never bother keeping the timer up on top of a shooter during a stage until their last position.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


The only division it even a problem with is PCC, and with most of them being severe gamers you have to stay as far away from the as possible until the end of the stage

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The only division it even a problem with is PCC, and with most of them being severe gamers you have to stay as far away from the as possible until the end of the stage

We're all playing a game so I've still never really understood the negative connotation of "gamers". I don't find PCC shooters to be any different to pistol shooters in that regard. I will agree that reshoots will happen more for PCC with ROs who aren't paying attention.

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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We're all playing a game so I've still never really understood the negative connotation of "gamers". I don't find PCC shooters to be any different to pistol shooters in that regard. I will agree that reshoots will happen more for PCC with ROs who aren't paying attention. 
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
 
 

That was in reference to the pcc shooters trying to run over the RO just to get a reshoot.

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2 hours ago, JZELEK said:

So you

So hypothetically in a 32 round count stage that if only 1 shot is picked up on the timer that is the final time?

How does the RO know that 1 shot was the final shot fired by the competitor?

Because a good RO KNOWS to be watching the timer when the last few shots are fired to make sure he captures the last round

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Timers can be faulty.  I hold the timer so that I can see the display and the gun for the first couple of shots, to make certain the timer is functioning.  At the last firing position, I again hold the timer so that I can see the display and the gun to see if the display changes.  I've had to stop a shooter because it wasn't picking any shots, and have had to issue a reshoot because the last shot didn't register.  This technique was taught in my RO class.

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May not be required to pick up all 32 shots, but I'd feel a LOT better about the whole thing if

 

it DID pick up all 32 shots.     :cheers:

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9 minutes ago, mwray said:


That was in reference to the pcc shooters trying to run over the RO just to get a reshoot.

 

 

Oddly enough the only person i had try that with me was an open shooter, but i was ready for him

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