Ideal Squad Size At Nationals

[BDH]

I'm curious about your thoughts on the relatively large squad sizes at the 2005 Nationals. I'll be honest that I was kind of dreading 20 person squads going in, but from my perspective, I thought they worked out very well.

The primary benefit to range staff was that we could turn around the stage really fast since as soon as we scored a target, two pasters went on it, and we moved on. From a shooter perspective, since the squads were so large, only around half the squad had to go down range to paste after every shooter, which gave people plenty of time to get ready to shoot, rest up, etc. The only downside I could see regarding the large squad sizes was that it made the walk-thru pretty crowded. On that note, since we normally turned our stage around in 45 mins max, we easily could have moved to a 10 minute walk-thru inspection period, and still have been way ahead of schedule.

The only disclaimer that I need to add here is that the only stage that I really saw running was my stage (Stage 12, Not In My Yard), so I am curious if the large squad sizes might have been a hindrince on other stages. Also, thanks to all the squads for being great at pasting and helping reset the stage. Despite the brutal heat, the squads were GREAT at helping us turn the stage around.

[XRe]

Definitely should consider walk through time with larger squads - not that it gets unfair for anyone (everyone will get the same walkthrough across all squads), but just for what BDH mentions - it gets pretty short w/ 20 people trying to walk through the stage in the "conga line"

[D.carden]

If the squads are finishing the stages ahead of schedule, then that seems like a idea.

Even having 2 - 5min walk tru's.

Upper half of the order 1st.

Bottom half 2nd.

Dan

[stingerjg]

even at our local club we use flordia squadding and squad size is usually about 12-15 per squad. It works out very well, IMHO.

[eric nielsen]

I voted for 6-10 because what a MD plans for and what he ends up with are usually different. The squads creep up in size.

10-12 works great but if we tell the MD's that 15 is okay then we're going to see more matches end up with 17-20, which is too much for some stage walk-thrus.

There's only a few things that will mess up the 5-minute walk-thru rule but these few things keep showing up & they can mess things up BADLY. Feel free to add on:

1. Targets that can be shot from more than one position.

2. Targets that can easily be overlooked from every position.

3. Start position with a broom-handle or pool cue in hand.

4. A "sweet spot" that lets you shoot 5-10 targets at once.

[driver8M3]

going in i was dreading the big squads too. but it turned out to be not bad at all. i think almost all of the stages were run fast and efficiently by the ROs, and with 19 shooters on my squad, i cant remember not having PLENTY of people downrange pasting after every shooter. even the walk-thru, at 5 minutes, seemed fine. i dont think there was a single stage where i didnt have enough time during the walk-thru.

a note on walk-thrus: at summer blast, one of the ROs cleared the range after the walkthrough and gave the 1st shooter a few moments to run through by himself. i thought that was cool.

[Thomas Moore]

most of the staff let the squad have a look at the stage a few minutes before the walk through which made it nice since 20 people on a squad would only have 15 seconds per walk through.

[BSeevers]

I agree that 19 shooters at first scared me ( I pictured getting off the range at 8 PM) It was a VERY well run match and 19 was never a problem. The more shooters you have means pasting/resetting is very fast. We followed and only bumped into the Super Squad maybe 3 times. The squad behind us bumped into us around the same amount. That's efficency.

Now if it is a circus match (read lot's of multiple target presentations or props) then I think a 5 minute walkthrough is very unfair to a shooter on a 20 person squad. I agree that letting shooters check it out before is a great policy.

[Matthew_Mink]

We had 19 in the Production side match, and 20 in the Lim10 side match. That was WAY too many people. Yes targets got pasted and steel was reset very efficiently, but the 5 min walkthrough was not enough. On one stage, I never got one until I was the on deck shooter.

[Flexmoney]

We were scheduled with around 18 shooters, went up to about 22 (had them the first day, on BDH's stage), and settled in around 20, I think.

Worked out fine. Better than I expected.

[carinab]

Were we at the same match?! Large squads on an all day schedule was not ideal IMHO. We had lots of down time in between stages (almost four hours one day over the break and lunch - three hours another day). Lots of wait time from one stage to the next was a killer on the mental game (pump up, cool down, repeat 7 times). Having a 8am to 6pm schedule everyday really killed the social aspect of the match too. All you could do was drink more water, shower, eat dinner and collapse. With a half day schedule you can socialize and do things. Given the number of shooters, at least an extra day would need to be added to each match. We had 20 in our first group, 16 in the second. Four of the 20 didn't start helping until an RO explained to their translator it was required. I think 15-16 is the outside limit. Too few (5-8 in a squad) and you have no time to prepare before shooting.

[Flexmoney]

Lots of wait time from one stage to the next was a killer on the mental game (pump up, cool down, repeat 7 times).

I think that can be part of the challenge. Which I like.

Having a 8am to 6pm schedule everyday really killed the social aspect of the match too.  All you could do was drink more water, shower, eat dinner and colapse. 

I agree there. I really did like the laid-back schedule from last year at PASA.

With a half day schedule you can socialize and do things.

True again. It is nice to have extra time to watch other squads, or check out the next day's stages. Half-day format allows for more of that.

It is always a trade-off.

[Steve Anderson]

Hey Matt:

I'm up first, can I cut in? :) :)

The big squads were nice, I thought. More shooters than targets.

SA

[BritinUSA]

We had problems running into the back of the squad ahead of us. In some cases we were waiting 40+ minutes in the heat, not much fun. The delays seem to be caused by lack of action in the patching department.

I thought the RO's did a great job at the match. I wouldn't have done their job if they paid me for it.

We only let the on-deck shooter walk through while we were patching, this was not pre-arranged it just happened that way and seemed to work well.

It's just like a World Shoot, sometimes the squads are about 20 people and only 5 minutes for a walk through.

[carinab]

As a side note, I had dinner with a good number of RO's after the prize table (about 20 to be exact). They weren't exactly thrilled with the schedule either. When I asked what everyone thought about it, one response was "I think a schedule that overworks the RO's and bunches up shooters on a slow stage is just all kinds of fun." The RO's most certainly rose to the challenge but I seriously doubt they liked it. The only upside I saw was a crisis bonding experience that made them into a stronger "team" if you will. Tough as nails barely describes the fortitude I saw displayed.

As I said, anyone who only shot one match would think the schedule was fine because they got a travel day on each side of the match. Those that stayed for both were smooth wore out and dissappointed that all they could manage was a "hi there" to people they only get to see once a year.

[HI5-O]

Me too, I thought 18 people in a squad was going to take all day and with the scheduled times to shoot each stage I thought we would be lucky to get out by 7:00pm. But thanks to the R.O.'s who started us early and to the squadmates who all showed up early and help tape between shooters it got us out sooner than expected, but not early enough to visit the vendors for any length of time

side note: this is my first major match where I did not have to buy hand/pocket warmers when shooting in the morning Enjoyed the "warm weather" shooting

Aloha,

Barry A.

[GeorgeInNePa]

With the heat, all day format, the heat, and staying for both matches, 12-14 shooters would have been a bit better. Did I mention the heat?

[Al Capizzo]

I thought the squads were simply too big. Yes plenty of people to help tape, in fact, to many. The downtime between shooting was BORING. I don't think I ever got to put on more than 4 pasters on any trip down range.

I think 10-15 is about right, if the scheduling can be worked out.

Al

[Stumpnav]

Al,

How did it compare in speed, down time, etc to Area 4 this year?

[Nik Habicht]

With the heat, all day format, the heat, and staying for both matches, 12-14 shooters would have been a bit better. Did I mention the heat?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did it warm up in the second half of the week?

[brother bad]

yeah, it was a trifle warm this year.

i didn't mind the squad sizes nearly as much as i thought i would, tho i DID hear some shooters who weren't pleased with it. the issue wasn't so much the walk thru/air gunning time as the wait to come to the line. we allowed the shooters to play on the stage a bit before the walk thru and, by the time the post walk thru 5 minutes had passed, most, if not all, the shooters were back in the shade.

most of the squads ran very well, taping, etc, with a couple exceptions during the two matches.

as many of you stated above, there wasn't as much time to socialize as in previous years. some nights we didn't leave the range til after 7pm.

[Jim Norman]

I personally like last year's schedule. I'm my not so humble opinion, this year's schedule was set-up to favor the few big dogs that have a serious chance of winning in multiple divisions. It could also be a money thinig for USPSA. 320 shooters at $225 x 2 vs 320 shooters at $225 x 1? Lets be honest here, this year we should have made money on the Nats as opposed to losing money. If this was the driving force, I have no real problem with it, just say so. Again, in my opinion, There are probably two real reasons for the split Nats, the Top Dogs and the $$$. I have no problem with number two, number one bugs me a bit. I'd prefer a single larger match. But USPSA has to make money or at worst break even, you can't lose money and stay in business.

My opinion, choose your gun and shoot it. Don't cry because you can't shoot Open and Limited, or Production and Limited-10. Go back to the 24 plus stages shot over 5 days in a morning/afternoon, 1/2 day format. We paid $450 vs $225 to shoot 36 stages vs 24 stages or 12.50 per stage vs 9.38 per stage and of course there were no shoot-offs for the Top 16/8 or whatever this year.

On a personal note:

If you shot both matches, you left home probably Friday night or Saturday and got back home Sunday, this is no different than last year, so the travel cost in time and hotels was the same. You saved one day off from work if you only shot one match.

As to squad sizes, 15 on a squad at a staffed match is a good size. 20 is LARGE. we had 18 and while it worked, if you were up laast, you needed another walk-throu since you had 40 minutes since the briefing.

All of the above aside, I had a good time. The RO's and Staff were fantastic. I am glad that he cold snap finally passed and we got some warm weather. I was concerned that I'd run out of long underwear last week.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

I think the "belief" that the multiple nationals is set up to "favor the Top Dogs" is a load of crap. (sorry for the bluntness)

What is does allow is for more competition. Heck, this year proves that...somebody finally beat Leatham at Limited-10.

If you buy into the line of thinking that a "few big dogs that have a serious chance of winning in multiple divisions"...doesn't that also mean that only a few have any chance of winning, regardless???

Why go at all then?

I gotta tell you...the guys at the top don't want to win if the competition isn't there. It would be a hollow victory. I know that I wouldn't have shot Production if Dave S. wasn't there. How many guys are gonna feel great about winning Limited unless they beat Leatham in the process?

"My opinion, choose your gun and shoot it. Don't cry because you can't shoot Open and Limited, or Production and Limited-10.

Well, opinions here will always vary. We do have FIVE divisions. I'd love to see us be able to run FIVE seperate Nationals. I just don't think it is currently logistically or economically possible.

What if the same person won all FIVE divisions? I guess that would make that competitor the best at all FIVE...which is what competition is all about. Nobody really wants to be the champion of the "so-and-so didn't shoot" division.

Bring on the conmpetition.

[Matthew_Mink]

Hey Matt:

I'm up first, can I cut in? :) :)

The big squads were nice, I thought. More shooters than targets.

SA

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or, I'm up last, can I cut in?

[John Dunn]

The large squads made the walk throughs tough to complete in 5 minutes.

The stage where I was going to be first shooter, I left a few minutes early and scoped the stage out. I didn't feel too bad about it, as we had a squad of hard workers, and it was rare to tape more than 2 targets.

I think 15 max is a better number.