Ideal Squad Size At Nationals

[Jim Norman]

If we ever are ABLE to hold 5 separate nationals, I am all for it.

I also agree that winning a division because so and so didn't shoot is a hollow victory. However. We essentially have that anyway. We only had two Natinals with three side matches. Who shot Limited? Who shot Open, Who shot L-10 and Who shot Production? True enough Rob finished secnd to Dave, but then again, who was not shooting L-10 and choose to shoot Open instead?

In reality, only a very few people have a serious chance of an overall win. Out of the 200 plus shooters in Open or Limited, how many really had any honest shot at a top 16? 25? 30? probably beining generous here.

Anyway, my opiinion, I liked the all in one last year. I would equally like 5 separate, but equal Nats where we have 250-350 people shoot 18-20 stages in each division over three days. Not realistic. There are not enough weekend in the year or people in the sport or money for that matter to allow for this.

What could be interesting is if we had rotating Nats. 2006 Limited, 2007 Open, 2008 Production, 2009 L-10. That is all you get to shoot that year. What would that do? would it increase participation or kill it off?

Jim Norman

[McNeil]

As to squad sizes, 15 on a squad at a staffed match is a good size. 20 is LARGE. we had 18 and while it worked, if you were up laast, you needed another walk-throu since you had 40 minutes since the briefing.

Jim, I agree, actually I prefer about 10 in a squad. If I am going to shoot a stage in 20 or so seconds, I would prefer not to have to stand around that stage for over an hour, it gets really boring

honestly, on our second day, my feet began to hurt from standing around.

On a lighter note, I did alot of walking. even though I had a golf cart.

-Neil

[Carl Provan]

Talk to Larry Houck about Summer Blast. He had squads of 6 shooters and he ran two flights each day and the shooters where done with 10 stages in less than 4 hours. That was nice. shooters meeting at 7 lunch by noon and you are done for the day.

[wide45]

The squad size was not an issue. We had a great bunch of shooters. More than 18 in our squad. We made good use of our time, and never felt the 5 minutes was too short. We got the stages reset fast, and for the most part, the RO's got the next competitor going right away, without us ever feeling pushed. The biggest problem was getting the whole squad down to the chrono early, so we'd have more time to scope out the stages coming up.

I really like the 2 and a half day schedule. You want a vacation? Go to Disneyland. I want to shoot, and keep going till I am tired and hungry. I have no interest in an 18 stage match dragged out over 4 or 5 days.

[hopalong]

MR Norman,

Please remember that their are 5 divisions in USPSA !!!

All deserve the same respect from the others, we all are shooting the same stages, and the same match just with other type of pistols or revolvers.

I and 19 others chose to shoot in the Revolver division which i will admit is not the most popular type gun to shoot USPSA/IPSC with but please note every year there are more.

AS with Production and Limited 10.

Open and Limited will always be the "KING" but give and take respect from the other divisions.

Now onto the real topic here,

My squad hd 17 in it everyone did their share of taping and steel setting, nobody had to work more than half a stage worth and it all got done with all getting plenty of time to reload mags, get ready to shoot, wipe off sweat, kill a tick, think about their time up.

BUT 12 Max to me and the few I spoke with on the squad seems to be the majic number.

I did not like the half days last year as it made (to me) the Nationals feel like shooting 5 daily club matches.

I also did not stay to shoot the second half of the Nationals, you really cant compare shooting 2 guns in a week vs 1 gun in a week for expenses if you are trying to compare for shooting 1 nationals.

I am an Electrician and when I take off to a shoot I just miss work, NO Paid time off.

So....last year travel on Sunday shoot 5 days and travel on Saturday. 1 week lost wages plus 7 nights hotel

This year. Travel on Saturday shoot 2 1/2 days travel on Wednesday 3 days lost wages and 3 nights hotel....

OBVIOSLY this year is Quite the bargain and I prefer this way/ should be easier on the staff too if it wasn't in BARRY IN JULY !!!!!

Little note on USPSA Nationals staff,

I know several Quality CRO and ROs that wanted to shoot 1 and work the other but USPSA management decided they would rather have non-shooters for the entire match. FWIW this year tortureing the ro staff IMHO (which means squat)

Sorry to ramble on.

Others perspectives please, HOW about the STAFF? what are your opinions ???

We all would like to know.

Hopalong

[Flexmoney]

Others perspectives please, HOW about the STAFF? what are your opinions ???

Yes, please...lets hear from the staff. That is the perspective we need to hear so that we (many of us) have an idea on how to run our more local major matches and such.

[brother bad]

hopalong makes some good points above. the revolver squad was an excellent group to work with; they're the kind of shooters none of us mind running, imho.

check the temperature in barry these days; damned shame we didn't start the match yesterday, no? the heat wave that came thru this year was exceptionally harsh; it's usually not quite so bad, tho it IS a tad warm, sometimes.

as for squad numbers, i agree; twelve is good, fifteen isn't bad, either. eighteen wasn't as bad as i expected, but i think it's a bit deep. the final shooters in squads of that size might be at a disadvantage, as has been mentioned previously. on the other hand, not everyone in the squad has to tape/set steel the entire time and turnaround time is, by and large, very short.

714 shooters in 5 days (2.5 per match). pretty good pace, overall.

and, yes, there are five divisions and each one deserves recognition, in my opinion. (not that anyone listens to me, mind you)

[Jim Norman]

Hopalong,

If you read the very first line in my last post, you would have noticed that I am in favor of 5 complete separate nationals. But only when we have enough people to make them worthy. So far we have 5 divisions and 2 nationals with three side shows. Only Limited aqnd Open attract enough support to run separate at this time.

I also did not propose 18 stages over 5 days, but rather 24 or more. With a slightly reduced squad size, we could easily run 25 full size stages, 5 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon. If we put 10 people on a squad, that would allow us to have 500 unique shooters at the Nationals.

Jim Norman

[hopalong]

Mr. Norman,

I did see where you mentioned all 5 divisions in your thread. You then go on to mention only 4 in the very next sentance. I also think you did not do it on purpose, BUT.....

Me personally I don't care, but for the guy out there just lurking and thinking about trying our sport who sees this kind of non-inclusion, what is he/she going to think?

We (yes all of us) have a bad reputation from earlier times of being snobby and non-inclusive any way. That is something we all have to work on, not an easy job to change already formed ideas for sure.

I agree that 25 stages will be better than 18 and would support your idea if you or who ever is producing it would make it "user friendly" to the average Joe out there who may or may not have compensated time off work.

These forums are the greatest thing we (USPSA/IPSC shooters in general) have going, Knowledgeable people who can for the most part agree to dissagree and still have fruitfull converstation.

Thanks for your time and effort you put into these forums, I did not intend to offend you and If I have I apologize, but we need to also "look at ourselves" from time to time and see if we are putting out the image we really want to cast.

As far as the 2 Nationals with 3 side shows, the side shows are growing every year despite the desires of some of the current leadership.... It will take time and effort but things will get better. Maybe splitting the Nationals into Race gun and Factory gun again....And making them to where they would be available to everyone. say one match in the Spring (late spring) and one match in the fall.

Hopalong/Sam Keen

[wide45]

25 stages is much better than 18. Now you can fill 3 days of shooting.

Still too few stages for five days.

[Harmon]

the squads were just too big

running into the back of the squad before us on every stage gets old too.

especially when you were the first shooter on stage 12, then your the last shooter on stage 13...nearly three hours of down time before you shoot again.

might as well go to the safe area and "bag it"

the walk through was crowded and many stage i didnt get to walk the course untill i was the on-deck shooter.

on the stages i did get to walk, i didnt get to spend as much time as i would have liked..and im not talking about spending 5 minutes Just for me...but geez when you get less time to walk the stage than it actually takes to shoot it

pasting targets did go very well, but since you had to stay behind those damned cones or caution tape when the shooter was shooting and depending on the RO you couldnt go foreward of that line untill the line was clear you had a long way to walk out and even then you might not get to paste a target or reset a steel

i appreciate all the help other shooters were given but damn...your just wearing us out going back and forth to put one paster on a target.

Ideally two people out of the squad could reset the stage two times in a row, then the reset crew could rotate. that way you only have to go downrange Twice per stage to reset, and everybody gets to reset the stage...all you have to do is tape the same number of holes you put in the paper and if everyone else is doing the same, the stage gets reset.

I liked the 50 yard standards at area 4....only the shooter and RO walked down to score the targets....it keeps from exhausting the whole squad.

while some folks were talking about hot, cant we move the match date to somewhere in mid august and put the match location somewhere in Death Valley?

thats just a joke, but why cant we have the nationals in the winter in a teperate climate(Florida)...carrying my gun bag 1/2 a mile from my truck to the stage Uphill(some steep F-in hills too!) in 95 degree weather doesnt seem to tickle my fancy...nor does it result in good shooting.

it was a good match, and i applaud the ROs...to put up with all our crap and work in the heat(for practically nothing) they deserve more than just the brass left on the ground!

Also i would like to see all 5 divisions shot at one match..the guys who shot the second match, but not the first didnt have the chance to shoot the(slightly modified) stages earlier...but they also havent been out in the heat toting the gun bag around all week either....

I would also like to see the competitors forced to choose 1 division to compete in for a national title...of the people who shot the L10 match, how many of them do you think would have shot L10 if they couldnt shoot limited (or production) too?

not many