Plate rack plates popping back up

[Maximis228]

I find most shooters dont care about competitive equity in the grand scheme of things (They just want to have fun). So when you have a Texas star (Or similar type prop) that drops multiple plates with 1 shot or 1 plate inadvertently knocks off another... Reshoots are rarely if ever called. Which is BS. This is why they don't belong in majors.

 

Hell... Ive seen texas stars in 3 gun where you can shoot the center of the star with birdshot and knock off all 5 plates with 1 shot. Super lame. Ive seen every plate retention type fail.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I find most shooters dont care about competitive equity in the grand scheme of things (They just want to have fun). So when you have a Texas star (Or similar type prop) that drops multiple plates with 1 shot or 1 plate inadvertently knocks off another... Reshoots are rarely if ever called. Which is BS. This is why they don't belong in majors.

 

Hell... Ive seen texas stars in 3 gun where you can shoot the center of the star with birdshot and knock off all 5 plates with 1 shot. Super lame. Ive seen every plate retention type fail.

 

I've never been to a level 2 match where shooters didn't care about equity or even a local club match where range equipment failures did not result in a reshoot (unless you had an r.o. who was not trained or a shooter that declined).

 

Steel works well if you have good steel and know how to set it up and maintain it. 

[Shadyscott999]

55 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

You find ways to get f*#ked on wide open paper targets, let alone BS steel props at majors. LOL

That is correct.  LOL

[Shadyscott999]

54 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

Ick. I'm sure there are better and worse designs and certainly have been at matches where there was problem equipment. My local club purchased a magnetic clamp type star either last year or the year before, I can't ever remember seeing a range equipment failure with it. 

 

 

 

My most fun & favorite match every year is the Missouri state USPSA championship, plate racks, multiple Texas stars, a really tough polish plate rack (&*$#!), just a ridiculous amount of steel spread out through 10 or 12 stages. I mean no offense and I don't know what those folks know or do different which makes things work, but it is a great match. 

 

Those props are really fun to shoot.  Competitive equity is blow out of the water by using them.  They should be held to level 1 matches IMO

[Shadyscott999]

43 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I've never been to a level 2 match where shooters didn't care about equity or even a local club match where range equipment failures did not result in a reshoot (unless you had an r.o. who was not trained or a shooter that declined).

 

Steel works well if you have good steel and know how to set it up and maintain it. 

 

Since when can a shooter decline a reshoot over REF?  

[MemphisMechanic]

1 minute ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

Since when can a shooter decline a reshoot over REF?  

 

Since local rules, yo.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Shadyscott999 said:

Circus props have no place in major matches.  

As far as targets go I agree 100%. I like to add variety by including seated starts, laying on bed starts, planks to shoot from, shaky or spring platforms, the occasional prone shooting position, etc. Stuff that won't break.

[IHAVEGAS]

 

3 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

Since when can a shooter decline a reshoot over REF?  

 

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Since local rules, yo.

 

If Joe Blow says "I don't care give me a mike or whatever" or "I did not bring enough ammo" , I do not know of a section in the book that prescribes how you force Joe to reshoot. I guess maybe you could dq him? I would not vote for the dq if there was any other option. 

 

And yes, I have only seen this at local matches. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@IHAVEGAS oh I know. I’ve done the same thing. At a local I’d often rather eat the mike and be done with the match in time to mow my lawn and paint the fence or whatever.

 

A lot of us will choose that over reshoots to better our scores... and stay out there until 4:30pm on Saturday.

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Sarge]

Just now, MemphisMechanic said:

@IHAVEGAS oh I know. I’ve done the same thing. At a local I’d often rather eat the mike and be done with the match in time to mow my lawn and paint the fence or grab wings and beer with the gang

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

Those props are really fun to shoot.  Competitive equity is blow out of the water by using them.  They should be held to level 1 matches IMO

 

At this point we both understand each other, I wish you could attend this years Missouri state match so we both had that as a common point of reference. Saw a couple of the big name shooters their last year (Matt Hopkins and a SS guy I can't remember the name of), they seemed fine with it. 

[Shadyscott999]

26 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

At this point we both understand each other, I wish you could attend this years Missouri state match so we both had that as a common point of reference. Saw a couple of the big name shooters their last year (Matt Hopkins and a SS guy I can't remember the name of), they seemed fine with it. 

 

Oh if it's there, I am gonna shoot it.  I have just seen too many people get screwed over to think they are a good idea at a major.  

I think as a minimum, if you are going to use stars and plates and things that require reset and activation, the RO's at majors should be required to reset them so they are done correctly and consistently for every shooter.  A lot of REF on these types of props are due to being incorrectly or differently reset by competitors.  

[MemphisMechanic]

45 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

(Matt Hopkins and a SS guy I can't remember the name of)

 

Tim Herron:

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1NNpWdt3M2VZ4Q4QJp3UaA

[IHAVEGAS]

43 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

I think as a minimum, if you are going to use stars and plates and things that require reset and activation, the RO's at majors should be required to reset them so they are done correctly and consistently for every shooter.  A lot of REF on these types of props are due to being incorrectly or differently reset by competitors.  

 

Makes sense.

If memory serves they told us not to mess with the polish plate rack & its door activator, for all the rest of the stuff (pasting , ports, steel, doors, swingers) one person made a walk through when the squad was done resetting. They had one stage with something like 29 plates so you sort of had to get the bull work out of the squad or maybe hire Boy Scouts or something. 

I have screwed up reseting an activator/swinger myself at a local and still hear about it . 

 

 

26 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Tim Herron

 

Yep. Wasn't around him but very briefly but he seemed like a good representative for the sport. 

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

 

If Joe Blow says "I don't care give me a mike or whatever" or "I did not bring enough ammo" , I do not know of a section in the book that prescribes how you force Joe to reshoot. I guess maybe you could dq him? I would not vote for the dq if there was any other option. 

 

And yes, I have only seen this at local matches. 

If a REF reshoot has been ORDERED and the competitor chooses not to reshoot the stage they will receive a zero for the stage the same as if they never shot the stage. 

Our rule book does not force people to do things, there are just consequences for not doing as you are required to.

There is only 1 optional reshoot (RO interference 8.6.4), all others are mandatory, if you choose not to shoot your ordered reshoot your original run not being scored, as it is not a valid run, means you have no score for the stage.   

 

[Brooke]

16 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

If a REF reshoot has been ORDERED and the competitor chooses not to reshoot the stage they will receive a zero for the stage the same as if they never shot the stage. 

Our rule book does not force people to do things, there are just consequences for not doing as you are required to.

There is only 1 optional reshoot (RO interference 8.6.4), all others are mandatory, if you choose not to shoot your ordered reshoot your original run not being scored, as it is not a valid run, means you have no score for the stage.   

 

 

LOL! Try reading 10.6.1 and 10.6.2. A range equipment failure (4.6.2) requires a reshoot. Refusing to do so gets you an early chocolate ice cream. 

 

You don't get to negotiate what penalty you're willing to accept and RO can't ignore the rules because you're too stupid to bring extra ammo. Live and learn.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Brooke

[StuckinMS]

I will never understand anyone not bringing ample ammo.  During the Arkansas Sectional a couple years back the wind started gusting 45 mph and I had to reshoot 3 stages, 1 stage 4 times until the wind finally quit just as mysteriously as it appeared.  You never know, so prepare for the  inevitable. 

[IHAVEGAS]

Going to a major I'm going to bring a lot of extra ammo, going to a club match I will bring an ample supply. 

 

What I'm not going to do is go full Nazi on some person at a local because they didn't plan on my clubs equipment causing problems at the match. 

[MikeBurgess]

7 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

LOL! Try reading 10.6.1 and 10.6.2. A range equipment failure (4.6.2) requires a reshoot. Refusing to do so gets you an early chocolate ice cream. 

 

You don't get to negotiate what penalty you're willing to accept and RO can't ignore the rules because you're too stupid to bring extra ammo. Live and learn.

Good luck with your interpretation with the Arb. committee. 

There are other ways to deal with a missing stage score that do not lead to a DQ. your view seems to be a bit on the harsh side for an issue that does not concern safety, cheating or bring the sport into disrepute, especially when it can easily be addressed by issuing a Zero score for a stage that was not shot, like any other stage a shooter does not shoot.

 

ETA yes I know the rue book does not directly address stages not shot, but I am confident that using the provisions of 9.7.7 would be the correct way to deal with missing stage results

Edited March 29, 2018 by MikeBurgess

[JAFO]

Mike, were you thinking of this...

 

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous attempt.

[Joe4d]

On 3/28/2018 at 10:24 AM, Maximis228 said:

I find most shooters dont care about competitive equity in the grand scheme of things (They just want to have fun). So when you have a Texas star (Or similar type prop) that drops multiple plates with 1 shot or 1 plate inadvertently knocks off another... Reshoots are rarely if ever called. Which is BS. This is why they don't belong in majors.

 

Hell... Ive seen texas stars in 3 gun where you can shoot the center of the star with birdshot and knock off all 5 plates with 1 shot. Super lame. Ive seen every plate retention type fail.

Far as the topic ?
4.6.1,, plate popping back up is an REF and reshoot. A plate rack is a mechanical device. It is designed to hold a plate until it is hit. then falls. If u hit plate 1 and plate 2 falls ? REF,, If u hit 2 and it falls and pops back up ? Unless it is an auto reset, it has mechanically failed.
Far as Texas star... Yes they are fun.. No they shouldn tbe at majors, I rarely see the scored IAW the rule book. This Includes NATIONALS... I watched my entire squad not be scored correctly. Either plates fell when the arms were hit, or multiple plates fell with one shot. I do think they are fun though.. Just to problematic for majors

[Brooke]

6 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Good luck with your interpretation with the Arb. committee. 

There are other ways to deal with a missing stage score that do not lead to a DQ. your view seems to be a bit on the harsh side for an issue that does not concern safety, cheating or bring the sport into disrepute, especially when it can easily be addressed by issuing a Zero score for a stage that was not shot, like any other stage a shooter does not shoot.

 

ETA yes I know the rue book does not directly address stages not shot, but I am confident that using the provisions of 9.7.7 would be the correct way to deal with missing stage results

There is no issue whatsoever. 2.3.3.3 deals with refusal to reshoot a stage that has been modified after the match started. A refusal to reshoot earns a zero stage score. It has nothing to do with REF. 

 

4.6.2 deals with REF and states “...must be required to reshoot the course of fire...”.

10.6.1 is the penalty for “failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official...” 

 

The RO has no choice but to require a reshoot therefore his direction is reasonable. Refusing is a DQ and no committee is going to decide otherwise. If they did arb committees would be rewriting the rules. The rule and penalty are clear. 

 

It it does not matter that you think DQ is too severe. DQ is the rule. You don’t get to make your own because inequity would be the result. 

 

 

[DKorn]

38 minutes ago, Brooke said:

There is no issue whatsoever. 2.3.3.3 deals with refusal to reshoot a stage that has been modified after the match started. A refusal to reshoot earns a zero stage score. It has nothing to do with REF. 

 

4.6.2 deals with REF and states “...must be required to reshoot the course of fire...”.

10.6.1 is the penalty for “failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official...” 

 

The RO has no choice but to require a reshoot therefore his direction is reasonable. Refusing is a DQ and no committee is going to decide otherwise. If they did arb committees would be rewriting the rules. The rule and penalty are clear. 

 

It it does not matter that you think DQ is too severe. DQ is the rule. You don’t get to make your own because inequity would be the result. 

 

 

 

I don’t think you should get a DQ for refusing to reshoot. Would you give a shooter a DQ if they decided to not shoot a stage at all, and just skipped it? I’d score it the same way- zero.

 

On the other hand, if you explain to them that they will get a score of zero if they don’t reshoot, and they argue that they should get a different score without having to reshoot, and become belligerent about it... see 10.6.1

[MikeBurgess]

Mike, were you thinking of this...
 
2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous attempt.

Thank you. For some reason I could not find that.

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[MikeBurgess]

I would bet money that an arb committee would never get to make this decision because I doubt any RM would uphold your 10.6 DQ. But if you found one that did I would plunk down my $100 or less and be quite confident that the committee would find in my favor.



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