Square Deal B - Sizing die alignment and bullet shaving

[matteekay]

Howdy!

 

I finally had a chance to try out the .45 ACP SDB I picked up from a member here (fresh off a servicing from Dillon). I really like it but I'm having two issues.

 

The first is that my brass doesn't want to align with the sizer die. On about 7 of 10 pulls, the casing enters the die and binds. I can work it into the right spot by hand and complete the pull, but obviously that's not a very effective way to run the press. Attempting to do it by force has the results you'd expect...

 

 

The other thing I'm running into is the seater die shaving the finish off my bullets. It's occurring in the same spot to about 1/2 or 1/3 of the rounds I run off. When it does, it looks like there's a ring-shaped indentation in the top of the bullet:

 

 

I am straightening the bullet as much as possible before seating.

 

Any thoughts on either would be hugely appreciated!

[stick]

Call Dillon.

I don't have a Square Deal.  I know that on my Dillon XL650, When I had the case crush issue, My shell plate was out of alignment.

 

You're saying it's only happening every now and then right?  Are you sure you are hitting your stops with the handle?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'd start by tightening the shell plate ...    

[matteekay]

The shell plate bolt is all the way in. Unless there's somewhere else I can tighten it that I missed...?

 

And it's more frequent than not. Basically, I occasionally get lucky and one goes it correctly. The rest all have to be manually aligned.

[dillon]

Inspect the shellplate for damage to the edges of the slots where cases are inserted. If someone has shortstroked the handle, the shellplate will not index completely. The next downstroke runs the decap pin into the top of the shellplate.  Cases should freely enter and exit the shellplate. Next, be sure you have the correct locator pins installed. For 45ACP, they should be marked "1".

[matteekay]

Will do. I'll take a look (and pictures) when I get home. And yes, it's using "1" locators. 

 

Is there a way for me to tell if it's short-stroking?

[matteekay]

Here are each of the slots - no damage that I could see. This guy was freshly serviced, too, so I imagine that would have been caught while it was back at home base.

 

 

 

 

 

I ran about 25 cases through, decapping/resizing only, and didn't have it occur a single time. This has me thinking that maybe something at one of the other stations is torquing the shellplate? Possibly related to the bullet shaving I'm seeing?

 

On that note - I noticed that there's also shaving occurring at the base of the bullet. A lot of them are having a "fingernail clipping" of powdercoat push up and out of the top of the case mouth after seating. Normally I'd think that I should just open up the expanding die a little more, but the mouths are already flared to nearly a trumpet bell and the bullets drop in easily. It's like they're getting squeezed further down the case.  

[Livin_cincy]

Just a thought.

 

Can you run a single case all of the way around without any issues ?

 

If so then it is a possibility it is one of the dies not correctly set up.  

 

 

[matteekay]

That's a great point. I'll give that a try when I have a break in a few hours (the joys of working from home!).

[mpssrh]

Regarding the suggestion that something may be amiss with one or more of your dies (see Livin_cincy above):

 

You may wish to consider doing the following:

--Slightly loosen all the die locking rings

--Place empty cases in all four stations

--Raise the shell plate so that the cases fully enter the dies

--Tighten the die locking rings.

This ensures (as much as it's possible to do so) that one achieves correct alignment of dies, cases, and shell plate.

 

I do not own a Square Deal B, and there may be some reason why this suggestion does not apply to that particular press. If so, someone will correct me.

 

Best wishes. Hope this helps. 

[TDA]

^^^ The SDB doesn't use locking rings or standard dies.

[TDA]

As for the crushed cases...I keep a finger touching the case until it is engaged by the sizing die. Just enough pressure to keep the case fully in the shell pl;ate groove. It's a timing thing in order to get your finger out of the way before it gets pinched between the ram and the die plate though. If your timing is off, you'll know it right away, because you can't imaging how much it hurts!

 

As for the shaving...the bullet is not sitting on the case straight when it enters the seating die.

Edited December 16, 2017 by TDA

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, TDA said:

As for the shaving...the bullet is not sitting on the case straight when it enters the seating die.

 

So what you're saying is... I need a third hand to pull the lever while one hand keeps the first case straight and the other holds the bullet upright? 

[GeneBray]

I use a 550 and 1050 so no experience with SDB. First, call Dillon - as they say “don’t suffer in silence.“. Second, shell plate pictures it appear to show the plate, especially the portion that holds the rim, that appears to be very dirty. Remove the plate, clean plate and base throughly, to include, if present the ball and spring that acts as the plate stop. Reassemble following the Dillon manual exactly. Third, the shaving of material on seating is normally caused by not enough flare or too much. Not enough and the bullet hits case mouth on seating. Too much and the bullet can tilt excessively during seating with same result. But, call Dillon and ask for help.


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[jhgtyre]

On 12/15/2017 at 5:43 PM, TDA said:

If your timing is off, you'll know it right away, because you can't imaging how much it hurts!

Yes I can!

 

Quote

the mouths are already flared to nearly a trumpet bell and the bullets drop in easily. It's like they're getting squeezed further down the case. 

The shaving of the coating sounds very much like a case mouth flaring issue or it could be that you have very over sized bullets.  A slight belling of the case mouth should be plenty.  Nothing like a trumpet bell should be needed.

[RudyVey]

There are two bullet seater stems included, one for round nose and one for flat nose, maybe this may cause the shaving, check out which one is in.

As far as the crushing of the brass, if you do not insert the brass all the way into the shell plate this may happen, a little out and it can crush the brass.

[matteekay]

On 12/15/2017 at 9:28 PM, GeneBray said:

I use a 550 and 1050 so no experience with SDB. First, call Dillon - as they say “don’t suffer in silence.“. Second, shell plate pictures it appear to show the plate, especially the portion that holds the rim, that appears to be very dirty. Remove the plate, clean plate and base throughly, to include, if present the ball and spring that acts as the plate stop. Reassemble following the Dillon manual exactly. Third, the shaving of material on seating is normally caused by not enough flare or too much. Not enough and the bullet hits case mouth on seating. Too much and the bullet can tilt excessively during seating with same result. But, call Dillon and ask for help.


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Gene! Good thoughts - I disassembled the lower section and cleaned the shellplate thoroughly. I was feeling like I had too much flare (no tension to hold the bullet upright) so I dialed it back a little. Now I can push the bullet into the case mouth and it stays more or less vertical.

 

 

3 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

Yes I can!

 

The shaving of the coating sounds very much like a case mouth flaring issue or it could be that you have very over sized bullets.  A slight belling of the case mouth should be plenty.  Nothing like a trumpet bell should be needed.

 

LOL, yeah, I've caught my hand in there at least once. That hurt, but the time I got it caught in the 650 REALLY hurt, haha.

 

My bullets are oversized (coated lead at .452") so a little shaving is to be expected, I guess, though I've test run a few now that dropped straight in. I didn't see any accuracy change when a little coating got scraped so it's not too big of a deal either way.

 

1 hour ago, RudyVey said:

There are two bullet seater stems included, one for round nose and one for flat nose, maybe this may cause the shaving, check out which one is in.

As far as the crushing of the brass, if you do not insert the brass all the way into the shell plate this may happen, a little out and it can crush the brass.

 

Yeah, it only took me four tries to realize that trying to force the brass in is not the solution. I'm not always the quickest... 

 

I'm hoping to get a little press time in today with the cleaned shellplate and less flare on the case mouth. I'll report back!

[pjames32]

While you have the shellplate off take a good look at the pawl that advances the shellplate. Be sure it is clean and moves freely. I've pilled powder in mine and it affects the pawl timing and movement.

[pjames32]

Spilled (Grrr)

[matteekay]

I'll double check it!

[GeneBray]

Too little or too much are both bad for proper seating. Just think Goldilocks and the Three Bears. You’re looking for just right on flaring. LOL!


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[9x45]

The seating die rod is double faced, for flat nose or round nose bullets. It has to fit the right way. Crimp is not crimp at all, just a de-belling step, and only enough to remove the powder thru flare, and only only flare to seat the bullet. Over crimping can lead to bullet setback. The flare does not hold the bullet in place, it's held in place by the neck tension that is created by the interference fit between the bullet OD and and case ID. Once the shell plate is properly tight (it's a shoulder bolt) then run your resizing die down to the face and back it off by a thickness of a piece of paper. Also make sure you have the right shell plate buttons because they are caliber specific. 9mm uses # 3 buttons, but I don't remember what the .45acp uses. Once you have made your  initial OAL and de-bell individually, you have to run all stations full to set the final value. I've run my SD since 2001 without ever a single issue. What bullet maker and what brass?

 

Actually best thing you could do is find another competitive shooter who has a SD and have him go thru the setup with  you.

 

From the photo it looks like you have 2 different shell plate buttons.

Edited December 18, 2017 by 9x45

[matteekay]

The buttons are all #1. Brass is mixed, bullets are SNS Casting 230gr RN coated lead.

I still need to pull the stem out of the seater. However, I made some progress with it yesterday during a small run (200 rounds). Lessening the flare helped me seat bullets straighter, so I'm barely having any shaving near the top of the cone like I'm showing in the initial picture. Shaving at the base seems to have gone down, too, though I don't think I can eliminate it completely since the bullets are oversized.

I didn't see any improvements with brass alignment going into the first station, so I started riding my finger on the brass until it enters the die. This works for now.

I noticed that I needed to push the brass straight back to get it aligned properly so that made me wonder. I got out a level and, sure enough, the press has a forward cant. It looks like I'd have to elevate the front of the press between a sixteenth and an eighth of an inch to get it perfectly level - I'm going to try shimming it at some point and see if that improves insertion at station 1.

All in all, it wasn't a bad run. I was averaging about 20 minutes per 100 rounds, and that included time spent removing the odd SPP brass or 10mm case that snuck in there, lol.

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[9x45]

What diameter bullets? Are you using the newer small primer .45acps?

Edited December 19, 2017 by 9x45

[9x45]

I've run this SD since 2001, both .45acp and 9mm, without issues, no leveling. You do have to insert the case completely into the shell plate on the first station.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by 9x45