If Finished perceived AD, is it a DQ??

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, JohnStewart said:

Thomas - first off, thanks for your response.  I appreciate your analytical and specific dissection of the points.

 

To your first statement, from the RO's perspective the press of the trigger was not deliberate.  The pressing of the trigger was an accident, a reaction to the slide accidentally slipping out of the left hand.  It seems that there is a question of how to rule if the shooter denies that point.  At which point I've come to the perspective that the RO should hear the competitor's explanation thoroughly and weigh that with their observation ... then make a ruling.  If the RO doesn't very clearly believe they just saw an accidental discharge, then the competitor doesn't get a DQ.  However, if the competitor acknowledges and agrees that yes the pulling of the trigger was an accident, I think most everyone is in agreement that this is a DQ for sure.

 

It also seems that we have different people interpreting when "unloading" is complete.  The rulebook says that unloading is ".. completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a RO".  So, from that definition I infer that unloading cannot be complete if, a) unloading has begun and b )  there is still ammo in the firearm.  The later of course was obviously the case in our example, since the ammo was ignited.  Some may challenge whether unloading had actually started, but again if we assume that the competitor acknowledges they were attempting to unload per the command "If finished, Unload & Show Clear", then it seems clear that unloading had started, was in process, and then the "shot occurred" - thereby meeting the 10.4.3 rule.

 

Your thoughts?

 

My thoughts were....that I wasn't clear.  I was responding to the article written by DNROI. 

I had responded earlier about what I thought about the OP's specific situation.  (To put it shortly: in my opinion, the fact the the trigger press was an accident due to improper unloading as the slide slipped out of the hand and the strong hand clenched, makes it a DQ in my eyes.)

That's separate from DNROI's point, wherein a person is deliberately pulling the trigger while pointing the gun in a safe direction after the "if finished" command but before the "if clear" command.

 

Regarding the part I'd bolded, above, though:  The problem with that statement is that it means that if the person starts unloading (after the "if finished" command), they can't fire a round without getting DQed unless they either empty the gun first and reload it, or turn it into a reload by putting the magazine back in.  And yet....all of us have probably seen people suddenly do a double-take, then fire the last round in the gun into a target making up a miss at that point in time, and these people were NOT DQed.

As such, I think there is an issue with the concept of "once you start unloading, you can't do anything but finish unloading or turn it into a  reload without getting DQed" because we simply know that isn't true. 

 

If the OP's case, it seems clear from the description as currently given, that the shot was fired accidentally while unloading.  DQ, IMO.  In the case that DNROI is talking about....I don't see an "unloading" currently happening at the point where the trigger was deliberately pressed while pointing the gun in a safe direction.

 

If I pull the magazine out of the gun, then raise it up in one hand, carefully point it at the berm, and press the trigger, how is that "while unloading"?

[Joe4d]

no idea why we cant just use some common sense.
Seems everyone forgets that 10.5 isnt all inclusive. It even specifically says it isnt all inclusive.
Ur gun goes bang when u didnt meant it. Is  straight up unsafe gun handling. Dont care how many ins outs or what nots you want to add to it.
I know it, The on scene RO knew it... The shooter knew it.
DQ unsafe gun handling. 10.5.
 A shooter in such a dang hurry to look tacticool on ULSC that he/she lights off a round is straight up unsafe and needs to go home.

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

pull the magazine out of the gun, then raise it up in one hand, carefully point it at the berm, and press the trigger, how is that "while unloading"?

Doesnt need to be, still deserve a DQ for unsafe gun handling. Lack of chamber awareness.
Muzzle awareness. chamber awareness, finger awareness. 
basic day 1 gun safety. Think I learned that at around 5yo with a Daisy red rider.
Is it loaded ? dont point it t something you arnt willing to destroy, and keep ur bugger picker off the bang stick till ur pointed at the target.
Now seems we got range lawyers making excuses for grown ass men.
 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Joe4d

[stick]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 11:45 AM, JohnStewart said:

At a recent Level I USPSA match, a fellow RO was at the end of a COF with a shooter.  The shooter was standing directly in front of a paper target only a few feet away, with his barrel aimed directly at the target when the RO gave the command, "If Finished, Unload & Show Clear".  It was obvious to the RO that the shooter was indeed finished and as the shooter attempted to grasp the slide of his pistol to pull it back and rack out the round to "Show Clear", his grip on the slide slipped and the slide returned to battery.  During this process, the shooters reaction included him returning his finger inside the trigger guard, squeezing the trigger and firing a round - directly into the target. 

 

 

 

'm going to give you my take. right, wrong or indifferent.  If the RO gave the unload and show clear command.  why didn't said competitor drop/release a loaded mag from the gun first?  Why was he trying to rack the slide of a loaded gun?  These are very important questions regarding safety.  I'll discuss two rules. 10.3.1 and 10.4

10.3.1 was absolutely violated when the competitor didn't drop a loaded magazine before racking the slide.  You said it yourself "During this process, the shooters reaction included him returning his finger inside the trigger guard, squeezing the trigger and firing a round - directly into the target."  I'm not a hard-ass, but safety first.  my thought DQ

10.4.1 is probably a longshot but 10.4 was violated by the fact the shooter didn't drop the loaded mag.

 

10.3.1

A  competitor  who  commits  a  safety  infraction

  or  any  other  prohibited activity  during  an  USPSA  match  will  be  disqualified  from  that  match, 

and  will  be  prohibited  from  attempting  any  remaining  courses  of  fire  in 

that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

 

10.4

Match Disqualification –

Accidental Discharge

A  competitor  who  causes  an  accidental  discharge  must  be  stopped  by  a  Range 

Officer as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows:

 

10.4.1

A  shot,  which  travels  over  a  backstop,  a  berm  or  in  any  other  direction,

specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being

unsafe.  Note  that  a  competitor  who  legitimately  fires  a  shot  at  a  target, 

which  then  travels  in  an  unsafe  direction,  will  not  be  disqualified  (the 

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply)

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by stick

[Thomas H]

7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Doesnt need to be, still deserve a DQ for unsafe gun handling. Lack of chamber awareness.
Muzzle awareness. chamber awareness, finger awareness. 
basic day 1 gun safety. Think I learned that at around 5yo with a Daisy red rider.
Is it loaded ? dont point it t something you arnt willing to destroy, and keep ur bugger picker off the bang stick till ur pointed at the target.
Now seems we got range lawyers making excuses for grown ass men.
 

 

 

Joe said this in response to my comment of:  " pull the magazine out of the gun, then raise it up in one hand, carefully point it at the berm, and press the trigger, how is that "while unloading"? "

Muzzle awareness and finger awareness---both right there in the comment.  "Carefully at the berm" and "press the trigger deliberately" (which is a word I used in the description of my comment, though it doesn't show in my comment). 

 

Chamber awareness?  Don't recall reading that in the rules anywhere.

 

"dont point it t something you arnt willing to destroy, and keep ur bugger picker off the bang stick till ur pointed at the target."

And the shooter did precisely both of those things.

 

A lot of people seem to be missing the fact that in USPSA, not all ADs are DQs.  That's simply how it is.  Some people may not like it, but this isn't IDPA where the RO can magically read the shooter's mind and make subjective calls based on what they think was happening and whether or not they agree with it.  In USPSA, only specific things are DQs.  Taking a deliberate shot into the berm isn't one of them.

 

"Lack of chamber awareness."  ----please point out to me where in the rulebook there is anything remotely resembling this.

 

Note again that this discussion is about the article by DNROI, not the OP.  (I think that one is clear, though obviously the discussion shows that other people don't agree.  ) 

 

In the situation in the article by DNROI, I would still like to know how a DQ for firing a shot while unloading is considered to be the correct call.  The person is not unloading.

 

[Joe4d]

IF CLEAR HAAMER Down..  it wasnt clear... IE shooter screwed up and didnt know the condition of his chamber. Shouldnt need a rule, called basic gun safety.
Pick up a gun first thing you do is point it in a safe direction keep finger off trigger anc check chamber. Make sure its loaded or unloaded.
Like I said common sense. SHouldnt need to lawyer this nonsense up.
ALL AD's are unsafe farr as I am concerned. 
Thats why there are 3 rules... muzzle finger chamber... Screwing up 1 or 2 and the third can prevent 2 unsafe actions from causing a fatality. 
The norm of calling some AD's not unsafe is just straight retarded.
Break rule 1,, Muzzle ( 180 thing) even if finger off trigger, and no rounds go off is a DQ.
Finger on trigger while unloading or doing something other than shooting, even if you dont shoot or break 180 DQ
But some how lighting off a actual unentional round is AOK unless you also do soemthing else wrong.
That is stupid. Probably the worse saftey infraction you can do with a gun other than actually shoot yoursself or a person is an AD.

But thats my opinion, and no it wont change, and no I dont care what anyone else thinks.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Joe4d

[stick]

29 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

IF CLEAR HAAMER Down..  it wasnt clear... IE shooter screwed up and didnt know the condition of his chamber. Shouldnt need a rule, called basic gun safety.
Pick up a gun first thing you do is point it in a safe direction keep finger off trigger anc check chamber. Make sure its loaded or unloaded.
Like I said common sense. SHouldnt need to lawyer this nonsense up.
ALL AD's are unsafe farr as I am concerned. 
Thats why there are 3 rules... muzzle finger chamber... Screwing up 1 or 2 and the third can prevent 2 unsafe actions from causing a fatality. 
The norm of calling some AD's not unsafe is just straight retarded.
Break rule 1,, Muzzle ( 180 thing) even if finger off trigger, and no rounds go off is a DQ.
Finger on trigger while unloading or doing something other than shooting, even if you dont shoot or break 180 DQ
But some how lighting off a actual unentional round is AOK unless you also do soemthing else wrong.
That is stupid. Probably the worse saftey infraction you can do with a gun other than actually shoot yoursself or a person is an AD.

But thats my opinion, and no it wont change, and no I dont care what anyone else thinks.

Agree totally.  unsafe is unsafe.  You don't have to go home mad, you just have to go home.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, stick said:

Agree totally.  unsafe is unsafe.  You don't have to go home mad, you just have to go home.

No you don’t really. If you don’t meet the parameters of an AD as defined by the rulebook you don’t have to go anywhere.

  While I agree with Joe in principle I think we need to play by our rules.

[stick]

22 minutes ago, Sarge said:

No you don’t really. If you don’t meet the parameters of an AD as defined by the rulebook you don’t have to go anywhere.

  While I agree with Joe in principle I think we need to play by our rules.

Sarge,  I'm not going to argue with the new USPSA section coordinator.  In my first post, I stated two rules that I thought applied.  Again, the mag was not dropped/removed from the gun.  How is that not safe?

[Sarge]

44 minutes ago, stick said:

Sarge,  I'm not going to argue with the new USPSA section coordinator.  In my first post, I stated two rules that I thought applied.  Again, the mag was not dropped/removed from the gun.  How is that not safe?

It’s not safe but it’s not a crime. Seriously, it’s Christmas Eve, I am not arguing at all. I am probably a rare breed because I can talk rules all day and not feel like we are arguing. I learn SOMETHING almost every time rules get discussed.

  I still think this original post indicates no DQ in just my opinion. That and $10 will get you a coffe at Starbucks.

[Thomas H]

I'm thinking it would help if people clarified if they were talking about the OP's situation, or the situation from DNROI's article. 

 

 

[stick]

7 hours ago, Sarge said:

It’s not safe but it’s not a crime. Seriously, it’s Christmas Eve, I am not arguing at all. I am probably a rare breed because I can talk rules all day and not feel like we are arguing. I learn SOMETHING almost every time rules get discussed.

  I still think this original post indicates no DQ in just my opinion. That and $10 will get you a coffe at Starbucks.

 

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

I'm thinking it would help if people clarified if they were talking about the OP's situation, or the situation from DNROI's article. 

 

 

Sarge, I'm not one to argue either.  I like the discussion.  I was just implying your knowledge and rules experience trumps mine.

Thomas, op's article.

Here's my final thoughts:

I just believe that unsafe is unsafe.  When was the last time you were told to unload and show clear and you racked the slide instead of dropping your mag first?  That's all I'm saying.  I can tell you the last time I did it.....Never.

So here's why I'm so stuck on the DQ.  (without a long drawn out story) Many years ago, As a IDPA SO, I was almost shot by someone trying to load their gun who was unsafe in their gun handling.  It's stuck with me.  Unsafe is unsafe.

[cas]

15 minutes ago, stick said:

 

 

I just believe that unsafe is unsafe.  When was the last time you were told to unload and show clear and you racked the slide instead of dropping your mag first?  That's all I'm saying.  I can tell you the last time I did it.....Never.

 

When was the last time you saw someone reload and rack a live round out of the gun for no reason? That happens all the time. Maybe the shooter started to drop the mag, but it back in, rack the slide out if habit and shot? (probably unlikely if he "shot from hip" but who knows, one could argue it) 

 

I will say one thing I have done (more than once) was drop the mag to unload, noticed a Mike and fired the round in the chamber at the target with no mag in the gun. Granted I raised the gun and aimed....

[stick]

8 minutes ago, cas said:

 

When was the last time you saw someone reload and rack a live round out of the gun for no reason? That happens all the time. Maybe the shooter started to drop the mag, but it back in, rack the slide out if habit and shot? (probably unlikely if he "shot from hip" but who knows, one could argue it) 

 

I will say one thing I have done (more than once) was drop the mag to unload, noticed a Mike and fired the round in the chamber at the target with no mag in the gun. Granted I raised the gun and aimed....

I've seen it a lot, probably every match.  just never when the command if finished, unload and show clear was given  

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, stick said:

 

So here's why I'm so stuck on the DQ.  (without a long drawn out story) Many years ago, As a IDPA SO, I was almost shot by someone trying to load their gun who was unsafe in their gun handling.  It's stuck with me.  Unsafe is unsafe.

Goodness, that’s even hard to envision! Glad you’re hear to tell the story. ? I witnessed one shooter who just had no idea what he was doing with a 1911. When he couldn’t figure out how to load it I just stopped him and pulled him aside. I gave him his money back and asked him to leave. It was obvious something bad was going to happen. 

[MemphisMechanic]

6 hours ago, cas said:

I will say one thing I have done (more than once) was drop the mag to unload, noticed a Mike and fired the round in the chamber at the target with no mag in the gun. Granted I raised the gun and aimed....

 

But even that, no offense, is usually seen only from novices who don’t understand hit factor scoring. It’s almost never worth making that mike up 4 seconds later.

[Thomas H]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

But even that, no offense, is usually seen only from novices who don’t understand hit factor scoring. It’s almost never worth making that mike up 4 seconds later.

 

Doesn't change the fact that it gets seen periodically.  People make all sorts of poor choices with regard to Comstock.  That doesn't make those choices a DQ.

 

I've seen people do it at the unload/show clear phase.  I've also seen people start a reload (in the middle of a stage) by dropping the mag, notice a mike on a target right before they leave a shooting position and  shoot it one-handed with the last round in the gun, and then take off for the next position while finishing their reload.   (And that certainly isn't a "shot while reloading" resulting in a DQ.)

 

Neither one of those things is a DQ for taking a shot while unloading/reloading. 

 

That's why I'm not understanding the reasoning behind DNROI's DQ (in the example he gave in his article) for taking a deliberate shot in a safe direction before the "if clear" command.  Sure, it was an AD (since the shooter didn't think the gun would be firing).  However, that situation isn't a DQ for a "shot fired while unloading" at any other time, and we don't DQ people for shots taken in safe directions while not moving.  (While moving there are more limitations, which is why I phrased it that way.) 

 

After the start signal, I can unload most of a mag into the berm while not moving, then drop the mag, and then fire the gun one last time into the berm, and then put a new mag into the gun, chamber it, and run off to shoot the rest of the stage.  (I don't know why I'd do this, but I could.)  None of that is a DQ.  (It might be a stupid way to compete, but it isn't a DQ.  )  

 

For the folks saying "shooting when you think the gun is empty is obviously unsafe gun handling" --- I'm not understanding why.  Could you explain to me why performing a deliberate trigger pull (not on accident) in a safe direction is unsafe gun handling?

 

Again, this is referencing the situation in DNROI's article, not the OP.

[Gary Stevens]

Re: DNROI

 

It seems to me this train of thought has possible unintended consequences.

 

The next time a shooter fires a shot on the draw that hits 12 feet from them, can I DQ the shooter because I judge that their intent was not to shoot into the ground where no target was available?

 

Maybe transitioning from one array to another, without movement, and fires a shot between the arrays where no target was available. Can I DQ the shooter because I judged their intent was not to fire a round where no targets were available?

 

If not, why not, if I am allowed to judge intent?

[cas]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

But even that, no offense, is usually seen only from novices who don’t understand hit factor scoring. It’s almost never worth making that mike up 4 seconds later.

 

I go to shoot things, not to not shoot things.  

 

[MemphisMechanic]

18 minutes ago, cas said:

 

I go to shoot things, not to not shoot things.  

 

 

I go to matches in search of the best possible score.

[Thomas H]

11 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

I go to matches in search of the best possible score.

 

Lot of people go to shoot things for fun with good people.

 

The 'intent" varies a lot between folks.  And we don't penalize people or DQ them because they didn't make optimum scoring choices. 

[MemphisMechanic]

5 hours ago, Thomas H said:

we don't penalize people or DQ them because they didn't make optimum scoring choices. 

 

Who said anything about DQing someome for hurting their score?

 

I just think it’s often a poor ability to do math, unless you have forgotten an entire target array.

Edited December 26, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Brooke]

I guess according to some of you that every mike should be a DQ because no one intended to shoot a mike so it's an AD. Suggesting that the RO should make a decision about the shooters intent is absurd.

 

Provided no other DQ rule was violated (over berm, hitting less than 10 ft, safe direction, etc) shooting after the ULSC but before the ICHDH command is perfectly acceptable. Aiming is not a requirement for any shot. 

 

We see criticism of RO calls all the time. If RO's are to be mind readers please take my card. The COF is not complete until ICHDH is given. If some silly SOB wants to shoot (as MM says above) well after his previous "last shot" it is not the RO's job to determine his level of stupidity.

[jester121]

7 hours ago, Brooke said:

The COF is not complete until ICHDH is given.

 

Not to be overly pedantic, but the COF is not complete until "Range is Clear" is given. 

[motosapiens]

On 12/24/2017 at 10:23 PM, Thomas H said:

I'm thinking it would help if people clarified if they were talking about the OP's situation, or the situation from DNROI's article. 

 

 

i think both are pretty similar. I support Troy's reasoning, and I would almost certainly call a dq on both situations.

Admittedly, it does bring a bit of subjectivity into the decision, but we already have subjectivity with pretty much *any* close call. If I thought there was reasonable doubt, and that the competitor might have actually known  the gun was still loaded, and was intentionally firing a shot, well sure, I might not make the call. I can easily imagine some situations that might be hard to decide. OTOH, we already have to make subjective calls on failures to shoot at a target. If we can judge whether a competitor shot or didn't shoot at a target, it shouldn't be hard to judge whether the competitor was intentionally shooting when he has an AD during ULSC. If a shooter claims 'i engaged that target, remember I fired 4 shots over there (when 3 of the shots were makeups on a missed popper, and not aimed at the target in question), then the BS meter is going to get pegged. Same meter reading if a shooter is looking down at his gun after ULSC and he jumps in obvious surprise when it goes off. If he claims he was making up a shot when he wasn't even looking at a target, I'm going to call BS.