Bad Call??

[waktasz]

Really?

 

Just do what George says. Ask them to cite the rule

[Flatland Shooter]

40 minutes ago, davsco said:

it would take some cajones to fight  a dq for lighting one off during your draw.  by all definitions, other than uspsa perhaps, that is a flagrant offense and i'd dq myself if i did that.  great, now i just jinxed myself...

 

Don't get me wrong.  I do feel that "lighting one off during your draw" should be addressed by the rules, but at the present it is not.  Why it is not I do not know.

 

The original post asks if a match DQ was the correct call per USPSA rules.  The answer is its not.

 

How far the competitor wants to take it is his business.  

 

I guess my problem starts with the post where the RO became a bit aggressive when someone indicated the rules did not back up his call. 

 

 

 

 

[Sarge]

14 hours ago, davsco said:

it would take some cajones to fight  a dq for lighting one off during your draw. 

No it wouldn't. It only takes knowledge of the rules to fight a DQ.

 I have probably witnessed a dozen early shots as an RO and never batted an eye.

  I think one of the reasons we don't need a rule for it is because there already is the 10 foot rule. There is a fine line between firing on the draw and firing early at a target. The draw is over in an instant then it's on to prepping to engage a target.

 As a shooter, I have touched one off early but it was just under a target way out there. 

  In practice once I was trying to see how guys can get a one second first shot off and lit one off right out of the holster. But I measured it and it was actually just over 10 feet away! But it was under one second! LOL.

[rowdyb]

You can't DQ someone for what you "feel" or "think". It has to be what you know for a fact. That's often forgotten after years of doing something casually or in the heat of the moment.

[rowdyb]

You can't DQ someone for what you "feel" or "think". It has to be what you know for a fact. That's often forgotten after years of doing something casually or in the heat of the moment.

[Kraj]

15 hours ago, davsco said:

it would take some cajones to fight  a dq for lighting one off during your draw.  by all definitions, other than uspsa perhaps, that is a flagrant offense and i'd dq myself if i did that.  great, now i just jinxed myself...

If you decided to stop shooting that's one thing. But at an uspsa match you go by the uspsa rule book. It's kind of the whole point. 

[echotango]

Happened to me Sunday. I kept shooting as it hit the berm. One person mentioned they would have dq'd me. My response was why? 

[StuckinMS]

8 hours ago, rowdyb said:

You can't DQ someone for what you "feel" or "think". It has to be what you know for a fact. That's often forgotten after years of doing something casually or in the heat of the moment.

Amen to that!  That is exactly why we have a rule book.  Without it how could we compete or determine the winner?  A good example of why to have a rule book in your cart or gun bag .  I have used it to get a reshoot for range equipment failure.  I hate that the shooter just let it go.  He should as any competitor make if a priority to follow the rules by knowing what they are.

[Nik Habicht]

On 9/5/2017 at 9:36 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Don't get me wrong.  I do feel that "lighting one off during your draw" should be addressed by the rules, but at the present it is not.  Why it is not I do not know. 

 

The problem with addressing it -- and I think it is addressed by the current rules -- is how to define "lighting one off during the draw?"

 

Is it lighting one off during the draw if the round misses the first target?  Does it matter if that target is at 2 yards, or at 35 yards?  At what point does it change from "lighting one off" to a miss?

 

USPSA decided that if the round hits the ground within 10 feet, that's "lighting one off" unless there's a target being engaged that's closer than that distance.....

[DKorn]

On 9/6/2017 at 11:39 PM, Nik Habicht said:

The problem with addressing it -- and I think it is addressed by the current rules -- is how to define "lighting one off during the draw?"

 

Is it lighting one off during the draw if the round misses the first target?  Does it matter if that target is at 2 yards, or at 35 yards?  At what point does it change from "lighting one off" to a miss?

 

USPSA decided that if the round hits the ground within 10 feet, that's "lighting one off" unless there's a target being engaged that's closer than that distance.....

 

Exactly!

 

A shot during the draw that hits the ground within 10 feet, with no target within 10 feet, is an AD and therefore a DQ. 

 

A shot during the draw that hits the ground further than 10 ft away, or closer than 10 ft when there is a target within 10 ft of the shooter, is a miss. 

 

A shot during the draw that hits a target (or no shoot) is scored accordingly. 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

A shot during the draw that hits the ground further than 10 ft away, or closer than 10 ft when there is a target within 10 ft of the shooter, is a miss. 

 

 

Not exactly. I DQed a shooter who drew to a close target less than 10 feet away. He put one in the ground about a foot in front of his foot.

  I don't think the rule is written to say you can't AD on a target less than 10 feet away. It is saying if you miss a target that close that is an exception to the AD rule.

[DKorn]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Not exactly. I DQed a shooter who drew to a close target less than 10 feet away. He put one in the ground about a foot in front of his foot.

  I don't think the rule is written to say you can't AD on a target less than 10 feet away. It is saying if you miss a target that close that is an exception to the AD rule.

 

I agree, but it's a tough call under the rules and very dependent on the exact situation and the relative position of the shot and target. 

 

The rule states that the following will result in a DQ for accidental discharge:

"10.4.2  A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor. "

 

So, in my mind, the question is whether they were "shooting at" a paper target closer than 10 feet from them. If I'm not sure, then I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I'm absolutely sure- for example, if on a wide transition from a target further than 10 ft to a target at 9 ft, they put a round into the dirt 9 ft from them but in line with the further target- then I'd rule it a DQ. If they disagree, then let's talk to the CRO or Range Master as needed. 

[JWBaldree]

Just an observation, but every AD I've seen at a match was followed by the shooter stopping what they were doing and having a wth just happened look on their face, if only for a second. Most were already into ULASC mode before the RO could say stop. While this has no direct bearing on the OPs 10 foot question, it is a fairly good indicator of whether a shot is intentional or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sarge]

20 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

Just an observation, but every AD I've seen at a match was followed by the shooter stopping what they were doing and having a wth just happened look on their face, if only for a second. Most were already into ULASC mode before the RO could say stop. While this has no direct bearing on the OPs 10 foot question, it is a fairly good indicator of whether a shot is intentional or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have you ROED more advanced shooters? They generally keep going in an effort to draw attention from the AD.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

I agree, but it's a tough call under the rules and very dependent on the exact situation and the relative position of the shot and target. 

 

The rule states that the following will result in a DQ for accidental discharge:

"10.4.2  A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor. "

 

So, in my mind, the question is whether they were "shooting at" a paper target closer than 10 feet from them. If I'm not sure, then I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I'm absolutely sure- for example, if on a wide transition from a target further than 10 ft to a target at 9 ft, they put a round into the dirt 9 ft from them but in line with the further target- then I'd rule it a DQ. If they disagree, then let's talk to the CRO or Range Master as needed. 

They will argue that and win by saying it was a makeup shot on far target. I'm not even a hard corps gamer and I would run that DQ all the way up the flagpole.

[JWBaldree]

5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Have you ROED more advanced shooters? They generally keep going in an effort to draw attention from the AD.

Plenty. I started my USPSA experiences at Rio Salado (including learning to be an RO), shot a few area matches and nationals, and RO'd a sectional or two. Locally I run our club's hybrid steel match. Just my observation that more experienced shooters KNOW when they wipe out, rare as those occurrences are. New or newer shooters that have way too much adrenaline flowing are the ones I observe making DQ'able errors and keep on going, mainly because they can't realize the error due to all the other stuff they are dealing with that an experienced competitor will take for granted. However, I can't remember seeing an AD where the competitor didn't show some kind reaction, if only for a split second. I'm not making an absolute statement of fact, just a general anecdotal observation, for what it's worth.

[DKorn]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

They will argue that and win by saying it was a makeup shot on far target. I'm not even a hard corps gamer and I would run that DQ all the way up the flagpole.

 

My reading of the rules (I'm not an experienced RO, but I've taken the class and try to follow these kinds of discussions to learn) is that a makeup shot on the far target that hits within 10 feet is a DQ because you aren't "shooting at" a target within 10 feet. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

My reading of the rules (I'm not an experienced RO, but I've taken the class and try to follow these kinds of discussions to learn) is that a makeup shot on the far target that hits within 10 feet is a DQ because you aren't "shooting at" a target within 10 feet. 

How do you know somebody isn't shooting at a target? The rules talk about engaging targets. That is a process not a single act

[Thomas H]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

How do you know somebody isn't shooting at a target? The rules talk about engaging targets. That is a process not a single act

 

Doesn't matter. 

 

The situation, as presented, was:  "If I'm absolutely sure- for example, if on a wide transition from a target further than 10 ft to a target at 9 ft, they put a round into the dirt 9 ft from them but in line with the further target- then I'd rule it a DQ. If they disagree, then let's talk to the CRO or Range Master as needed.  "

 

And the rule is:  "10.4.2  A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor. "

Was there a hit within 10 ft?  Yes?  Were they shooting at a target within 10 feet?  No.  (There was a wide transition necessary to shift aim to the near target, and the hit was in line with the far target.)

 

DQ.  The fact that they were shooting at a target doesn't change that, when the target they were doing a makeup shot on was past 10 ft. 

 

(Now, whether that is actually unsafe gun handling or instead really poor shooting is a different argument.)

[boyertr]

On 9/5/2017 at 9:36 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Don't get me wrong.  I do feel that "lighting one off during your draw" should be addressed by the rules, but at the present it is not.  Why it is not I do not know.

 

The original post asks if a match DQ was the correct call per USPSA rules.  The answer is its not.

 

How far the competitor wants to take it is his business.  

 

I guess my problem starts with the post where the RO became a bit aggressive when someone indicated the rules did not back up his call. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you why it's not addressed by the rules. Many times it's impossible to tell if the shooter lights one off accidentally during a draw, or if it was a (really fast) intentional shot. Having the round hit the ground at any distance, 10 feet or otherwise, makes it pretty easy to figure out. But there are a lot of situations where it's actually an ND, but the round impacts the berm or the RO simply doesn't see where it hits the ground because it strikes too far away.

I know a shooter who has a bad habit of doing this exact thing. he's never been DQ'd for it for two reasons. One is that it never hits the ground less than 10 feet away. The second reason is that he plays it off really well, like he was actually just getting his first shot off that fast. Many times, he'll just take the miss on the first target to make it seem like that first shot was intentional. People who shoot with him a lot cringe and roll their eyes when it happens, while people on the squad who don't know him so well all stand there in awe, as if he just busted out the fastest first shot on target from a draw they ever saw.

Edited September 14, 2017 by boyertr