Bad Call??

[BGREID]

At a recent match a competitor at the buzzer, draws and has an AD that hits the ground well over ten feet out, it was not measured. The RO calls a DQ.  

What is your call?

Edited September 5, 2017 by BGREID

[George Jones]

What rule was violated?

[Kraj]

Unless it is listed under 10.4 it isnt an ad at uspsa matches. 

[Sarge]

34 minutes ago, BGREID said:

At a recent match a competitor at the buzzer, draws and has an AD that hits the ground well over ten feet out, it was not measured. The RO calls a DQ.  

What is your call?

Based on this limited info it was not an AD by USPSA rules.

[JMike]

Agree with Sarge.

[Flatland Shooter]

Was the competitor moving out of a box to engage the first target?

 

Possibly Rule 10.4.6 "A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets".

 

More information would be helpful.  Did the competitor protest the call?

[davsco]

with all the emphasis at uspsa on safety, pretty surprised at the unsafe gun handling that can occur without a dq.  finger in the trigger guard while clearing a jam as long as pointed near targets, above a.d. while drawing...

[bret]

1 hour ago, BGREID said:

At a recent match a competitor at the buzzer, draws and has an AD that hits the ground well over ten feet out, it was not measured. The RO calls a DQ.  

What is your call?

if it didn't strike the ground within 10' it is not a DQ, yes it is a bad call unless there was another safety rule violation.

[gng4life]

Are you sure the DQ was listed as 10.4.2? When a DQ is put in the scoring system, either paper or electronic, some notation should be made as to why the competitor was DQ'ed (10.3.2). I would ensure that first. Like it was said above, sometimes bystanders don't get all the information and just go off what they see but it may have been for a different violation. Just my personal rule, unless it is so obvious that it is well over 10' (for example like 25' and you just know it is impossible to be less than 10'), then I always measure and put that measurement on the score sheet, if within 10'. I heard a competitor one time saying the shot was well over 10' but when it was measured, it was 10'3". No DQ but it was not well over. So just a good idea to measure it, you know how guys are with their measurements

[BGREID]

I don't k ow what was put down as a reason. But I am an RO and it was well over 10 foot, besides without measuring it how can you DQ?

[BGREID]

12 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Was the competitor moving out of a box to engage the first target?

 

Possibly Rule 10.4.6 "A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets".

 

More information would be helpful.  Did the competitor protest the call?

It was a classifier shot from a box.

[BGREID]

When I told the RO it was not a DQ he got a bit aggressive and since the shooter did not want to challenge it I let it go. But is was a bad call and I told them so. RO said it was unsafe gun handling. The bad part is  the RO is a match director at another range.  

[George Jones]

The best response to a bad call is "Show me the rule!"

 

Likely as not, that "RO" doesn't have a rulebook.  Loan him yours.

[Gary Stevens]

I hear the door to the NROI woodshed is open just waiting on a new occupant.

[Flatland Shooter]

6 hours ago, BGREID said:

 RO said it was unsafe gun handling.                The bad part is  the RO is a match director at another range.  

 

This RO is all over the place.  Rule 10.5 covers unsafe gun handling and this event is not covered by it.

 

It tough that the competitor did not want to fight this for whatever reason but the part that I find most upsetting, if its accurate, is the RO got aggressive when someone tried to correct him on the rules.  Its one thing to make the mistake, but its on a whole new level if an RO is unwilling or unable to accept they could be wrong.  Assuming someone had a rule book handy, this could have been quickly resolved and never made it to this forum.

 

Perhaps the RO is watching.

 

 

[JAFO]

Not disputing the replies to the topic, but since DQ's have to list a rule that was violated, why does 10.5 have this disclaimer at the top:

 

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

 

What would fall under "but are not limited to" for which you can quote a violated rule?

[George Jones]

With one exception (10.5.17) Unsafe Gun Handling has nothing to do with a gun going Bang!

 

10.5 does not apply to the situation as described.

[George Jones]

To answer JAFO's question.....

 

(My opinion only) - That disclaimer has been there as long as I've been in the game.  I suspect that the founders decided that it would be impossible to list all the possible creative ways shooters might find to do something unsafe/stupid without the gun going Bang!

 

If the 10.5 disclaimer was used to DQ a shooter because of one of those unmentioned acts, it would probably go to arbitration where it would be resolved more formally.

[racerba]

35 minutes ago, George Jones said:

With one exception (10.5.17) Unsafe Gun Handling has nothing to do with a gun going Bang!

 

10.5 does not apply to the situation as described.

But a gun going bang could be the result of an Unsafe Gun Handling, no?

[Flatland Shooter]

5 minutes ago, racerba said:

But a gun going bang could be the result of an Unsafe Gun Handling, no?

 

Yes.  Running between arrays and bang.  Reloading a magazine and bang.  Clear that jam and bang.  Bang not required but since finger is inside the trigger guard, all are DQs under Rule 10.5.

[George Jones]

Many can and do but they then also fall under 10.4.

 

For example - You could violate 10.5.10 and be DQ'd without the gun going Bang!  But if the gun does go Bang! then you are also DQ'd for violating 10.4.6.

 

[BGREID]

Again shooter was standing in a shooters box. It was just an AD, he just touched the trigger to hard. Coming from a draw. The round hit the ground well over ten feet out, unmeasured. 

[Flatland Shooter]

And again, by the USPSA rules it was not a DQ offense.  But no one was willing to fight it at the time.

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, BGREID said:

Again shooter was standing in a shooters box. It was just an AD, he just touched the trigger to hard. Coming from a draw. The round hit the ground well over ten feet out, unmeasured. 

NOT an AD per USPSA rules. That's all that matters to us. Did he mean to fire a shot? No. Is that an AD to the rest of the world? Yes. But not to us.

[davsco]

50 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

And again, by the USPSA rules it was not a DQ offense.  But no one was willing to fight it at the time.

it would take some cajones to fight  a dq for lighting one off during your draw.  by all definitions, other than uspsa perhaps, that is a flagrant offense and i'd dq myself if i did that.  great, now i just jinxed myself...