Scoring While Shooting

[BDH]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so will start here.....

One thing that caught me a little off-guard at A6 was getting to the end of the stage, clearing the shooter, starting to call targets, and being told by the RO on the clipboard... 'I've already got all the targets except those in the back'. Initially, I thought, 'oh oh, the shooter is going to protest big time because people are pasting behind the scoring, and they did not have the opportunity to see their hits.' Well, it was interesting to me that we had no one that had an issue with this, and in fact, I was told 'we do that all the time down here'.

One thing that was really nice was that it says that shooters trust the range staff. Also, since it certainly speeds things up on a big stage, it did seem to be the way to go so I started announcing this in the walk-thru (per 9.6.2). Again, no objections, and in fact, few delegates ever sent along with us......

Looking for input on this.... is it okay to run all matches like this (Club to Nats)? Do you want to see all your hits? Is is okay to score 'most' hits but leave the 'questionable' or 'close' hits for your inspection (which does create a problem because moving things along might mean that one close shot got pasted....)

Open to input and thoughts.....

[SmittyFL]

Some stages certainly lend themselves to being scored like that. I've never had a problem with it as long as I know a head of time and can have a delegate.

Obviously or maybe not obviously we do that at club matches all the time w/o delegates. It's pretty much the norm "down here".

[folsoml]

I thought it was great and it really moved things along. Although this was one I could have used a little more time on deck to formulate my plan.

[diehli]

We don't tape targets with misses on 'em... make sure the shooter sees 'em so they can try to find the hit(s).

[George]

Yeah, what Cullen said. Scoring and taping the hits on long stages where it is safe to go downrange while shooting is still happening is no issue IMO, it's the mikes and edgy NS's that have to be left for the shooter to inspect. The shooters all have to be OK with it too.

If this procedure was used at a major USPSA match, I could see a whole can of worms to sort out or the arbitration door would be wide frickin' open to anyone with a gamey bone in them.

--

Regards,

[GuildSF4]

I seen and scored many the way BDH said. However for the major matches I have RO'd we scored back to front and had tapers standing by most of the targets.

We still score pretty fast. Our average time per shooter last year on the stage I worked at Area 2 was 2:20 for a 30 round field course.

[ima45dv8]

Hmmmmm.... I didn't know that.

Yeah, we usually do it that way "down here", but that's at Level I matches. It shouldn't have been done at A6 (or even a state-level event), without announcing the intent during the reading of the stage breifing. Thankfully, you added it to your routine. We have to give the shooters the opportunity to appoint a delegate, if desired. Otherwise that nasty can 'o worms George mentioned is going to get opened and we could lose a stage.

Scoring behind the shooter does make life a little easier on the RO with the timer, though. On many stages I've ran I felt like I was doing double-duty: Down and around with the shooter, UASC, walk back up front, and then go for another lap around with the shooter/scorekepper/pasters. Makes for long weekend.

Thanks for the heads up, Brian.

[DogmaDog]

BDH,

I shot your stage, and I was happy with the scoring. I missed one of the targets, and it was left untouched, and one of the ROs told me it was there, and gave me the chance to look at it before it was taped.

I guess I'd ideally like any misses, no-shoots, and "close calls" to be brought to the shooter's attention, but most of the targets are going to be 2A, AC, or 2C, and I don't mind if you go ahead and score 'em.

Also, they did the same thing on one of the other stages at A6, but the RO's specifically offered the shooter the chance to see every target if he wanted to. Most shooters were happy with having the stage partly scored while they shot. If they weren't that was OK, too.

DD

[ima45dv8]

Also, they did the same thing on one of the other stages at A6, but the RO's specifically offered the shooter the chance to see every target if he wanted to.  Most shooters were happy with having the stage partly scored while they shot.  If they weren't that was OK, too.

DD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you remember if that was on "No Shoot-ing"? That was the one that had sort of a snaking path through lots of vision barriers, with the sneaky, easily missed target on the right side. I ask because that was planned and prepared for (the stage briefing was modified to announce the intention). I think they were only scoring the first 4 on the left.

If it was some other stage, then I'm relieved to hear it was announced in advance.

...Mark

[mcoliver]

Yep, that's what we do back here, too. For long stages, score even when the shooter is still shooting. Single hole targets, hits near the scoring border, no-shoot hits, etc. are always (or most often) skipped for shooter verification.

[BDH]

Yeah, we usually do it that way "down here", but that's at Level I matches. It shouldn't have been done at A6 (or even a state-level event), without announcing the intent during the reading of the stage breifing. Thankfully, you added it to your routine. We have to give the shooters the opportunity to appoint a delegate, if desired. Otherwise that nasty can 'o worms George mentioned is going to get opened and we could lose a stage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again..... this was the first time I saw it, and as I said, it seemed that EVERYONE was cool with it (even the big dawgs). That was what was so amazing since they are not very far apart at the end of the match.

Everyone deserves time to inspect their run at a match, and I am not trying to take that away from them. Also, I agree that this 'could' open a whole new can O' worms. Just commenting that we announced it... everyone agreed... and it definately helped move the stage along.....

That said... good idea/practice, OR bad idea/practice? Should only apply to Level X matches, or should apply to all matches as long as announced to competitors in the walk-thru??

[Tman33_99]

As long as it is known before hand and shooters either have a delegate or the staff lets them inspect anything that may need closer inspection or an overlay then I am all for it.

[shred]

We do that a fair bit at local matches, especially on long, deep field courses and newer shooters. Likewise, so long as misses and such are left alone, no big deal. At a larger match, I'd want to make sure a delegate was watching if only so I could ask them 'where were the hits on that target?' if I so desired.

[ima45dv8]

Again..... this was the first time I saw it, and as I said, it seemed that EVERYONE was cool with it (even the big dawgs). That was what was so amazing since they are not very far apart at the end of the match.

Everyone deserves time to inspect their run at a match, and I am not trying to take that away from them. Also, I agree that this 'could' open a whole new can O' worms. Just commenting that we announced it... everyone agreed... and it definately helped move the stage along.....

That said... good idea/practice, OR bad idea/practice? Should only apply to Level X matches, or should apply to all matches as long as announced to competitors in the walk-thru??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's a good idea, even at high-level matches as long as the shooter has a chance to appoint a delegate, if they choose. It's such a good idea, it's covered in the rulebook. See 9.6.1 through 9.6.3 (too much to type right now when you're as slow as I am).

[DogmaDog]

Yeah, it was "No Shoot-Ing". I had to walk through about 5 times coming up 2 rounds short on the total count before I found that target on the right side...but shot it clean.

Again, I think: Offer the shooter the option of seeing everything, allow him to delegate someone, or just don't touch anything questionable--if the shooter agrees, it's good to go.

DD

[XRe]

This begs the question, though - what happens if you get towards the end of the stage, realize you forgot that tricky hidden target, and (safely) head back towards it, only to find that there are now several folks (one or more ROs, your delegate, tapers, steel setters, etc) in your way, and targets taped???

[ima45dv8]

This begs the question, though - what happens if you get towards the end of the stage, realize you forgot that tricky hidden target, and (safely) head back towards it, only to find that there are now several folks (one or more ROs, your delegate, tapers, steel setters, etc) in your way, and targets taped???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We'd all know you missed it, and wouldn't approach anywhere near that target. Partly to stay out of your way, but mostly to have a good place to heckle you from.

edited to add: We do encounter that sometimes, and the scorekeeper keeps everyone back until the RO declares the range is clear.

[wide45]

It has been my experience that the RO rarely fails to find an elusive hit. It is not so rare to call a hit with an incorrect value. Leaving the misses un taped for viewing does not assure the competitor that he was scored all the points he shot.

I don't object to the delegate system per the rulebook, but the CRO must make it clear that the competitors are expected to take part.

[mcoliver]

This begs the question, though - what happens if you get towards the end of the stage, realize you forgot that tricky hidden target, and (safely) head back towards it, only to find that there are now several folks (one or more ROs, your delegate, tapers, steel setters, etc) in your way, and targets taped???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most times I see this the RO holding the timer would raise his hand to indicate "possible" PE and motions the guys at his back to stay away in anticipation of the shooter's action of going back.

[AzShooter]

Danger... Danger Will Robinson

Yeah, it sounds like a good idea, especially at the club level and it will save time but it will come back and bite you at any big match where the shooter can sneak in a reshoot because someone taped a target or reset the poppers before they were "officially" scored or before they got to see their hits and yes I have seen this happen.

If you are letting the squad call the hits and tape then you should make it clear that there will be no reshoots do to an argument about hits.

If the RO is doing his job he shouldn't be following up and scoring targets, he should be right next to the CRO and keeping track of the shooter, hits, faults, etc.

[Flexmoney]

I'm not OK with not seeing all my hits.

Everybody has made a mistake or two scoring. If my score gets fouled up, I want to be the one that is responsible.

[Skywalker]

Brian,

this is what happens here in Italy at matches ranging from local to Lev.III.

On long stages (mostly 28/32 rounds long courses) the RO, during the squad briefing, will brief the squad that targets will be scored and patched while the competitor is still shooting, to speed up things.

The RO will invariably tell the squad that each and every competitor is entitled to nominate a trusty friend to follow the RO while scoring, to be sure no mistakes are made.

Of course, as everybody else has pointed out, controversial targets (mostly missed targets) are not patched, for the competitor to inspect them.

It's also common courtesy from the RO side to advice competitors that if they feel uncomfortable with this procedure, it's their right to ask the RO to perform the scoring in their presence after final holstering.

So far, nobody has ever complained about this procedure, and long stages have been run fairly well according to the match schedule.

[Liota]

Danger... Danger Will Robinson

Yeah, it sounds like a good idea, especially at the club level and it will save time but it will come back and bite you at any big match where the shooter can sneak in a reshoot because someone taped a target  or reset the poppers before they were "officially" scored or before they got to see their hits and yes  I have seen this happen.

If you are letting the squad call the hits and tape then you should make it clear that there will be no reshoots do to an argument about hits.

If the RO is doing his job he shouldn't be following up and scoring targets, he should be right next to the CRO and keeping track of the shooter, hits, faults, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Negative. Three years ago at the TX 3-Gun, I told competitors on a long-range rifle stage that they would not see their hits. If they wanted to appoint a delegate, they could, but if not, the targets stood as scored by the RO. It was included in the walkthrough. Not one competitor had an issue or tried to ARB it.

Worked like a charm.

Liota

[LPatterson]

I guess I must be a Range Officer NAZI because the way I read 8.3.8 "Range Is Clear", this is not allowed. "Competitors or Range Officials must not move forward of, or away from, the the firing line or final shooting location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets,etc."

Since I work at the pleasure of the Range Master, I"ll let him/her make the decision whether or not to violate the rules, afterall that is why he/she is paid the big bucks.

I learned a long time ago to follow orders as given and complain about them later.

[Skywalker]

GW69,

in the case I reported, it's a RM decision prior the commencement of the match.

The RM states that stage no. X has to be scored while competitor is still shooting to keep the match running according to the schedule, and the stage ROs have to comply.