What Would You Do?

[John Heiter]

An RO's job is to do his best to keep the shooter from breaking the rules and to enforce the rules that he knows have been broken. If I think a shooter might have swept themselves, broken the 180, or had their finger in the trigger guard I will likely warn them but if I'm certain they did then I have to make the call. We've lost some shooters at my club who couldn't handle the "shame" of a safety DQ and I hate that but that's just how it is. I'm surprised by how many people on this forum are saying things like "it's a local match and he's a new shooter so I'd let it slide but I'd DQ them at a big match". Most of the guys at big matches are experienced and know what they are doing. A higher percentage of the guys at local matches are going to be new, unused to safety rules, and might do stupid things like coming to the line with a loaded gun. Do it nicely, try to be courteous and professional when you do it, but do it. I had an RMI remind me this past weekend that a DQ doesn't mean the shooter gets sent home, it just means they get to put their gun away and watch a pistol match. Invite them to help out and have them run the clipboard or something so they don't leave in shame. I think that's pretty good advice. If I were in your shoes, I would try to pull the RO aside and talk it over with him. It may be that he just needs a little encouragement to get the stones to make what he feels will be an unpopular call. I would also informally make the RM aware of the situation because this is the sort of thing that they need to know about. Maybe they could stress the importance of safety and adhering to the rules in a nothing personal sort of way at the start of the next match.

My .02

John

[Nik Habicht]

What if the new shooter/newly DQed shooter gets in his car and never looks back?  Have we done him a service?  Have we really done the sport a service?

What if....

What if the shooters that show up at each and every match...the known return customers...the guys and gals that are down range setting and pasting...(you get the picture)...

What if THEY don't come back because the match isn't being run by the safety rules?!?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.......or step down as match director (a permanent year round gig around these parts) or stage designer/builder. What will happen to the sport if the matches evaporate?

[mactiger]

The bottom line here is safety. The RO's primary responsibility is safety, and if a safety rule is broken, there aren't any "strong warnings" or "I oughta but I won't this time" options. In this instance, the shooter should have been DQ'd forthwith. You don't have to be nasty about it, but it needs to be done, and the "why" of it explained to the competitor if he doesn't understand.

This RO is not setting a good example for anybody. He's saying: "I know what the rules are, but they don't apply here". Wrong.

Somebody should mention this to this guy.

Troy

[JerryDGeek]

The bottom line here is safety.  ...

This RO is not setting a good example for anybody.  He's saying:  "I know what the rules are, but they don't apply here".  Wrong.

Somebody should mention this to this guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As should be no surprise to anybody, Troy is absolutely correct here. In fact, everybody who said, in effect: 'no compromise on safety rules!" is correct.

I've been RO-ing for a while, and I've made almost every mistake possible.

I've never felt that I was wrong in imposing a safety rule. I've DQ'd my friends. I've even DQ'd my sweetheart, SWMBO. I felt bad about it, but it was the right thing to do.

I've also failed to DQ people who broke the safety rules. Once out of ignorance, and once (an an Area match) out of sheer softheartedness to a 15-year-old Phillipino lass who holstered her pistol without applying the safety. In the latter case, I had already DQ'd another lady on the same stage (who had an AD on the reload), this was the VERY NEXT competitor on the stage, and she had a half-dozen of her fellow countrymen looking on proudly. Instead of busting her, I leaned over and quietly whispered "look down, check your safety. Put it on. I OUGHT TO DQ YOU, BUT I WON'T ... THIS TIME."

Yeah, I was a nice guy. But I was wrong. And I've felt 'wrong' about it ever since. Even though I wasn't a 'dedicated RO' ... I was just another competitor serving my half-day obligation as a worker bee ... I really didn't have the heart to DQ two competitors in a row.

Breaks of the game, right?

The breaks of the game are, if a shooter, or two shooters, or ten in a row violate a safety rule, then every one of them are not in the best frame of mind to compete today, and they really really ought to go sit down and watch everybody else.

It's not a matter of teaching anybody a lesson.

It's not a matter of being a nice guy, or being a 'range nazi'.

It's not a matter of choosing to damage or enhancing your own personal reputation.

It's not a matter of encouraging (or rather not DIS-couraging new, young, or vulnerable) competitors.

It's a matter of accepting the responsibility to ensure range safety. Everybody goes home without bleeding. It doesn't mean everybody goes home without having their ego, or their reputation, damaged. Stuff happens, you're responsible for what you do.

If I saw somebody getting away with violating a safety rule, it shouldn't matter who they are, or who I am, or what the circumstances are.

I would HOPE that I would counsel the RO to the effect that he wasn't doing his job. I would also HOPE that I reported his derelection of duty to the RM.

That's in the area of "what would you do".

In the actual event, I probably would stop after taking the RO aside and talking to him, or her, about what the job entails and about hard decisions. I probably wouldn't take it to the RM unless the RO refused to acknowldge his error and/or seemed inclined to be more responsible in the future.

Why?

Because we need to be supportive of both people who want to compete, and people who are willing to volunteer to do the hard job of officiating.

If they can learn to do better, they deserve a chance to learn from their mistakes.

But if they can't learn, they shouldn't be in the position of insuring the safety of others, no matter how strong their sense of dedication may seem.

I've seen people bleeding on the range, and it ain't pretty. I invariably find myself thinking "This could have been prevented with training and supervision". And I'm grateful the the self-imposed victim could walk off the stage.

It only takes ONE blood-on-the-saddle incident to affirm your dedication to the proposition that it's better for the competitor to be pissed off, and perhaps to quit playing the game, than to see him lying in a pool of blood.

I've also seen a person cut himself with an axe while chopping wood. Not a pretty sight. It wasn't my job to keep him from hurting himself.

On the range, it's everybody's job.

Troy is right. If you see somebody 'getting away' with violating a safety rule, you're not doing anybody a favor by ignoring it.

[Jim Norman]

We have had this exact occurance happen at our club and also at an IDPA range where Iused to shoot. At our club, it was an indoor match,the shooter had a brain fade in that we set up two COF side by side,the side he was on was empty, the other side was not, there is no divising wall between them. He drew his empty gun and was taking sight pictures. He was at the time a very new shooter, probably second indoor practice. He was DQ'd. A couple of us went over and carefully explained again the why and whyfore of the rule and that while he was DQ'd he was welcome to come back, but that he would have to be more mindfull of the rules. He left and frankly, a lot of us though that we'd seen the last of him.

He returned and has become quite a good part of our regular group, show up, is pleasent and helpful and safe. So a DQ does not mean that you have seen the last of the shooter.

At the IDPA club, multiple shooters were breaking the rules of general safety as well as IDPA by taking sight pictures from behind the line! Talk about scramble! You should have seen us moving. Now I know why the ROs there wore vests. That club for other reasons (loss of lease) no longer exists.

So all having been said, if the shooter were to pull and point down range I would not hesitate to DQ, but if he barely cleared holster and stopped and reholstered, I might depending upon the shooter's attitude, DQ or not, IF however he pulled and pointed downrange, that is too far over the line to let stand, I have to DQ. The shooter obviously was not aware enough to recover. I feel that there is a very fine line.

Jim

[chuckw]

Troy is right.  If you see somebody 'getting away' with violating a safety rule, you're not doing anybody a favor by ignoring it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds about right to me.

[Hotmetal10]

Had the range been clear and the RO been able to stop him quick enough, I'd have no problem giving the new shooter a break. With someone down range, no question about it, DQ.

I have seen plenty of questionable calls and felt it wasn't place to say anything. Had I been the guy down range, I would have no problem voicing my concerns. If the call were to stand, I would probably change squads or go home. The RO that did not DQ him probably would have felt differently if he had been the one downrange.

[pskys2]

Sounds like this competitor needs a "Safety Lesson" that only a DQ can provide. The RO did a disservice to everyone on this. Being a Good Guy isn't the same as being "Easy". We all hate to DQ someone, but when a competitor pulls his firearm without the RO's express command it is a sign of more serious problems to come.

With someone down range it is impermissable. No Questions.

You can't be "forgiving" on this. I've had RO's give the LAMR command with people downrange, but since I try to see what is going on, I pointed it out to them and refused the command.

If the RO had given the command, and the competitor followed it, shame on them both (but it does happen). But to assume the command is coming, ignore the activity downrange and draw your firearm without RO approval. Well that competitor isn't aware (has nothing to do with experience) of what's going on and most likely has a "Me" complex that will only get worse.

What would I have done, I would have yelled at the RO/Shooter that I'm still down range and then pull the RO aside at that time and gently questioned his action, with a recommendation of the proper action. If he didn't, then I would mention it to the RM and Club President (or Officer available). No need to get in a screaming match, but sometimes an easy RO only needs a little backing to do the right thing.

It is easy to get wrapped up in this being a "Game" and forget that it is a potential "DEADLY" Game! A firearm pointed at me will always get a response of some kind.

You don't have to be a Range Nazi, but everyone on the range depends on the RO for their safety.

Dave

[sturmruger]

It seems to me that the major offense here was him drawing his gun without the LAMR command. I know an open shooter who was DQed at nationals for the same thing. I have seen several people DQed, and I am sure they will never make the same mistake again. It seem to me that one of the best ways to learn is through a stiff penalty, and that is what a DQ is.

[davidwiz]

It seems to me that the major offense here was him drawing his gun without the LAMR command.

Not to mention that rtr (the original poster) was downrange at the time.

I know an open shooter who was DQed at nationals for the same thing.  I have seen several people DQed, and I am sure they will never make the same mistake again.  It seem to me that one of the best ways to learn is through a stiff penalty, and that is what a DQ is.

As for handling the gun before the LAMR, at the Nationals last year, a competitor did just that, but for reasons that I still don't know, they didn't get DQ'ed.

[GuildSF4]

Having a little experience with this (RO at several major matches and TMTC club matches) I would have to agree with DQ especially with a person downrange.

Safety is highest priority.

In this particular case was I RTR, I would at least talk to the RO.

PS: Whenever I RO'd a major match we had a designated chaser to ensure the range was clear in addition to the RO. So you have at least a double check that the range is clear of personnel.

[reneet]

I most likely would have asked the RO to enforce the rules and if he did not would have taken issue to the next highest authority . . . range master or match director. If safety rules are not enforced, I'm not interested in being on the range.

Slight Thread Drift / RANT with regard to drawing gun without LAMR command. At a major match recently, the RO was talking to me while I was on the line about giving another shooter LAMR command. If I hadn't been paying very careful attention, it's possible that I could have taken that as my LAMR command. Would I have prevailed in an arbitration had I done so?

[pskys2]

If you drew when the RO was talking of the LAMR command to someone else, and NOBODY was downrange. Then if I was on the Arbitration Committee, I would rule in your favor.

If however you did it and someone was downrange, it's your ultimate responsibility to not do it. And you probably wouldn't win an Arbitration.

I have a tendency to run a quick range. But, I am paranoid of someone being downrange, and act accordingly. When safety is the issue, there is never any rush.

As a competitor, I always look downrange and check for others. Unfortunately there are times when you can't see everything, but you must try.

Dave

[rtr]

Here's the dilemna I am facing with this whole thing.

I could now approach this particular RO (who is not only a very good shooter but a hell of a nice guy that works hard to make IPSC a great sport at my home club), or I could approach the MD for this particular match. It seems either way I am questioning the ROs ability and frankly I don't want him mad at me or annoyed about this whole deal, because he does so much for IPSC around here and has been so nice to me.

However, I think that safety is the MOST important aspect of our sport and it should be maintained at all costs.

[Flexmoney]

It seems either way I am questioning the ROs ability ...

How is that much different from making a DQ call?

It is just like when a shooter screws up, we have to duty to DQ them. Here, we have an RO that screwed up. It needs to be addressed as well. Not addressing the issue, allows it to continue (and, you know it will...as it already has...first, with the steel match...now, with this instance).

Cowboy up.

I'd talk with the RM and MD, they need to know. They should handle it from there. But, if they don't, then stay with it.

[John Heiter]

Well, as far as the dilema goes, it's probably a little late to try a quiet word with the RO unless it happens again. I think the best thing to do at this point would be to speak with the MD and let them know what happened. Ask them to give a little safey briefing and stress the importance of adhering to safety related rules at all match levels before the next match. If others know about this incident and they aren't saying anything then the RO isn't the only one in your club that could use a rules refresher. We've had touchy issues like this before, ex. some shooters not doing their part to paste and reset targets, etc. and it seems to work well to have the MD stress the importance of whatever issue at the shooters briefing at the start of the next match.

John

[MVZ]

Here's the dilemna I am facing with this whole thing.

I could now approach this particular RO (who is not only a very good shooter but a hell of a nice guy that works hard to make IPSC a great sport at my home club), or I could approach the MD for this particular match.  It seems either way I am questioning the ROs ability and frankly I don't want him mad at me or annoyed about this whole deal, because he does so much for IPSC around here and has been so nice to me.

However, I think that safety is the MOST important aspect of our sport and it should be maintained at all costs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

]

RTR

You are correct. Safety is the most Important thing and the RO's only resposability. and it MUST be Maintained at any cost. If approached correctly I think the RO in question would understand. complaitency when it comes to safety in our sport can not tolerated

MVZ

[cautery]

Frankly, I can't understand how there can be folks on both sides of this discussion. There was a man down range... DQ, end of discussion. This isn't a USPSA/IPSC rules situation. It's hard-core, inviolable range rules.... carved in stone.

If a man on one of my ranges in the service had touched his weapon with anyone forwad of the firing line, he would have suffered a lot more than a DQ and loss of a match fee.

The Range Officer/Safety Officer, be he IPSC or any other, is there to make the tough calls... this was NOT a tough call. It was a wrong call.

The RO in this situation is dangerous. He NEEDS to be addressed about this situation, preferably by he RM from this match or omewhere further up the chain if need be, and cautioned to sharpen his judgement or turn in his RO credentials.

[Chuck Anderson]

There was an article in Front Sight not long ago about local clubs not enforcing ALL of USPSA's rules. The long and short of it was that if clubs are running matches advertised as being USPSA they need to use the rules. There are a couple matches in the area that I no longer shoot because, bottom line, I don't feel safe. One is a practical rifle match where a shooter pointed his rifle downrange with people setting targets. After a little chat with the RM after I tried to DQ him he was given a stage DQ and allowed to continue with the match. I haven't been back since.

If we allow RO's to compromise safety then we need to find a new sport because sooner or later USPSA will go away. What happens when on the next stage, or the next match the same shooter launches an AD and it causes an injury. Sounds like a pretty good lawsuit against anyone who allowed this unsafe shooter to continue. What about the people who came to the match, maybe one of their first, maybe they've been to several, who saw this and thought, "maybe I'll just find a way to spend my weekend where I don't get guns pointed at me." Speaking as someone who has had guns pointed at him, I don't like it.

So what to do about the situation with the RO. Talk to the RO. It's not too late even now. In fact it might have an even greater effect. Let the RO know the reasons that everyone gave for DQing that shooter. And let him know that you still have concerns because of it. I think if you explain it from this point of view I think he might get it. If not explain it to the MD and RM. Let them know that you can't keep coming to their matches if the RO's won't follow the rules.

I can't imagine the shooter would have a problem with being DQ'ed. It's not like it was a minor infraction. I think if you tell him, sorry you pulled a gun out with a shooter downrange, you gotta go, he's going to understand. And frankly, if he doesn't get it, he's not going to figure it out. That is not the kind of shooter we need coming back to our matches.

[johnhurd]

I am getting the feeling here that the RO was the only person to rule a DQ. I cannot find in the rules that I as a paster cannot DQ your funky butt, so you are gone.