Minimum compliance "Arms naturally at sides"

[CHLChris]

I've been working on my draw with Steve Anderson's dry fire books and have found great growth in my par times!  In his show he talks occasionally about starting position and keeping as ready a posture as possible.  Thus, shoulders should remain up, as they will be once fully in one's shooting position.  Plus, hands should be in a ready position that is as close to the gun as possible, while being minimally in compliance with the phrase, "arms naturally at sides."  This includes a surrender start, with wrists as low as possible to still comply.

How many have ever been directed by an RO to comply a little bit more, or been told that they are not hanging naturally enough?  This seems to be an area of the rules that is not well described in the rule book and I'd really like to be compliant...but minimally.

Thoughts?

[teros135]

You can't be "minimally compliant"; you do it or don't do it.  "Hands naturally at sides" can have several smallish variations, but always at sides, not in a "FBI quick draw" stance - at sides.  

If you're all tensed up and the RO says to relax your hands/arms, just do it.  Tensed up doesn't lead to fast starts, anyway.  And having your hands an inch closer to the gun doesn't do a darn thing.  

Just practice a good, clean draw and don't worry about it (:  .

Edited October 15, 2016 by teros135

[konkapot]

Don't chase little stuff............having your hands at a minimally better location pales in comparison to having a perfect draw stroke in your tool box.

[Ewilson224]

Teros135 is spot on the money here!  

[CHLChris]

"Tensed up" is not the same as raised up.  There's no need to slouch the shoulders.  My draw is 0.2 second faster, consistently, with my shoulders pre-set than with my shoulders relaxed down.  The starting position of arms naturally at sides does not address the starting level of the shoulders.  Up does not equal tense.

And it is exactly the "little stuff" that provides speed gains (snapping the eyes to the next target before the gun arrives, breaking the first shot with only the first foot in the box, moving to the next piece of steel before watching the first one fall, etc.).  A perfect draw stroke could be faster with the "little stuff" buttoned up.

Edited October 15, 2016 by CHLChris

[Sarge]

Well, you seem to not want sound advice so I'll just answer your question. Yes, I have corrected many a shooter on their start positions. I would have to run you to tell if you are not in compliance. 

If you look posed or unnatural at all I'll tell you "hands relaxed at sides" to remind you.

FYI APP E3 looks pretty relaxed to me, and that's what I use to judge shooters. It does not show high shoulders with hands unnaturally located near the gun etc

Edited October 16, 2016 by Sarge

[Southpaw]

7 hours ago, CHLChris said:

"Tensed up" is not the same as raised up.  There's no need to slouch the shoulders.  My draw is 0.2 second faster, consistently, with my shoulders pre-set than with my shoulders relaxed down.  The starting position of arms naturally at sides does not address the starting level of the shoulders.  Up does not equal tense.

Are your arms and hands hanging naturally by your sides with your shoulders "pre-set" like this?  I think you really already know the answer to your question...

And yes I've corrected people on this as an RO.

[DagoRed]

I hadn't thought about trying to be extra ready, at sides just meant relaxed at sides to me. I do make a point to not let my right wrist/forearm rest against my gun though. That's probably what totally relaxed at sides would be but it would slow me down so I hold my arm a little out.

I did modify my surrender position after seeing myself on a friends camera. When I started surrender to me was palms facing forwards forearms perpendicular to upper arms. I realized that's way too much unnecessary movement, I had to not just swing my arms down but also in. I now keep my hands closer to my head and my right hand is in "beer" position, ready to come right down onto my gun. 

I think the solution to your problem is to walk around like the bodybuilder guys that have elbows out and back, if you do that all the time ROs will think that's your normal "relaxed at sides" position.

Red

[rowdyb]

I see a lot of people started on "hands naturally at sides" with a good bend in their elbows and hands at the front of their thighs, kind of lifted. Seems like something to "get away with" or be minimally compliant as you said.

I don't think it's worth it though. If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum. Just do what's required and work a good base of skills from that direction.

[MemphisMechanic]

I let my arms hang naturally - as mentioned I firmly believe a relaxed upper body will result in a more consistent draw and smoother/faster start than a tensed up "IPSC Gorilla" will.

What happens when your trigger finger gets tensed during hosing? Trigger freeze. Being fast and smooth means being fluid, not tense.

I rest the exact same spot on my forearms against the holster and against the first mag pouch every single time, though. So the gun is always in the exact same place relative to where my hands are.

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[9x45]

Well, if Appendix E3 wasn't clear enough, showing the shooters arms nearly straight, including wrist below the muzzle, it's being addressed in the written stage brief at some matches. Wrists are below the belt. Pretty much solves the issue. Doesn't say anything about shoulders, do whatever you want, although I start exactly the same as Memphis. Consistent position, consistent draw. Very slight improvements that work at the GM level may not result in any improvement in D class, for example. That's usually much more fundamental oriented.

Edited October 16, 2016 by 9x45

[davsco]

yeah there are a lot of folks that really push it, clearly hands not relaxed at sides.  frankly i think it's a d*ck move putting the RO in a crap position to have to sound like a whiner or nikpicker/rules nazi and correct the shooter's position.

[teros135]

1 hour ago, davsco said:

yeah there are a lot of folks that really push it, clearly hands not relaxed at sides.  frankly i think it's a d*ck move putting the RO in a crap position to have to sound like a whiner or nikpicker/rules nazi and correct the shooter's position.

Not at all.  It's not the RO who's got himself in an awkward position.  Being defensive about getting caught is a time-honored strategy, but it doesn't make you look good.  

[CHLChris]

I absolutely see the point of not setting up in a way that makes the RO even have to say something, much less ask me to change.  I'm relatively new, but increasing in skills pretty quickly.  So I want to train my body to naturally be in the best position at start without giving up time unnecessarily. 

Some people sneer at the idea of trying to minimally comply and call it gaming (not that any here are doing that), but I don't want to give away low-hanging fruit.

For one thing I place my right hand on the grip and left hand on my first mag just before dropping them into position. I've been leaving my shoulders right where they are, keeping my fingers in the same position, and just dropping my arms down just enough.  I've cut my draw time in half by just being aware of the details.

Edited October 17, 2016 by CHLChris

[motosapiens]

23 hours ago, 9x45 said:

Well, if Appendix E3 wasn't clear enough, showing the shooters arms nearly straight, including wrist below the muzzle, it's being addressed in the written stage brief at some matches. Wrists are below the belt. Pretty much solves the issue. Doesn't say anything about shoulders, do whatever you want,

to me, this makes MUCH more sense than quibbling over what 'naturally at sides' means. for most people your gun and mags are in the way anyway, so it's not really possible to hang your arms 'naturally at sides'.

As a shooter, i have never been corrected on this, but I haven't shot at sarge's club.

As a CRO, I have never corrected anyone on this.

[9x45]

20 hours ago, teros135 said:

Not at all.  It's not the RO who's got himself in an awkward position.  Being defensive about getting caught is a time-honored strategy, but it doesn't make you look good.  

 

Yea, and it's a really good way to get yourself on parole with all the RO's at a Level 2 and higher match. RO Stage 4 on radio to RO Stage 5, we got a DikHed on Squad 7, a real creeper, watch for him.

Edited October 17, 2016 by 9x45