drums in PCC

[ormondopen]

are they legal? saw in the PCC rules that there are no restrictions on round/length but was told they are not legal. sent an email to DROI but haven't heard back yet. Anyone know for sure?

[PPGMD]

There are effectively no rules on magazines for PCC. Even couplers are being allowed.

Though I can't imagine a match where I would need a drum. My 41 round magazines are more than enough for even the toughest stage.

[ormondopen]

i'm running colt style magazines that hold 32. had a stage that was 32 with steel and had to do a reload which was poorly executed. LOL heard that taran glock base pads fit the colt style magazines but don't want to spend the dough unless I know for sure. looking at the x products 50rd drum for stages that would require a reload. plus a drum would be cool just to have. :-)

[rishii]

Beta C is also make a 100 round drum

i was tempted for a sec, until I saw the price

[Gary Stevens]

4 hours ago, ormondopen said:

are they legal? saw in the PCC rules that there are no restrictions on round/length but was told they are not legal. sent an email to DROI but haven't heard back yet. Anyone know for sure?

Ask them to quote (show you) the prohibition.

[bret]

this is part of the problem with PCC, it's supposed to follow Handgun Rules except a few changes to accommodate start positions, classifiers and how the gun is handled.

looks like it needs a new rule set of its own, not a bastardized version of handgun Rules and things made up as it goes along, doesn't seem like it was very well thought out or implemented by USPSA.

what is wrong with limiting magazines to 141.25 mm or 171.25 mm, the same rules as apply in handgun rules?

[Darqusoull13]

PCC rules need some tweaking but magazine length is not one of the issues. Standard mags for the Sig MPX and CZ Scorpion aren't 171mm. Heck, what's the length on a HK MP5 mag? UZI 25 rounders work at 166 mm but UZI 32 rounders don't at 201 mm. I don't see much of a need to limit PCC mag length and with all the different platforms it would be a huge pain for some platforms to get mags to specific dimensions. If drums are allowed I won't complain, but I also don't see a need to buy new (expensive) 50 rounders when I already have 41+1. The division is amazing and only needs some basic changes and more importantly, RO education. Limiting the mag length  will drastically limit the number of potential shooters.

Having said that, PCC reloads aren't AS bad as people are making them out to be. Typically on a course of fire we mask the reload time with movement anyways unless it's a classifier (dull) style stand and deliver stage. So my mag change is a little slower than limited, I'm still practicing and getting my PCC mag changes smoothed out. 

While I'm sure there are those that want to destroy PCC before it gets started, I'm the opposite. I built a PCC to get people interested. It's been MUCH easier taking a brand new shooter out to the range the day before a match and teaching them to move and shoot with a PCC than it was with a pistol, particularly with smaller framed shooters. My PCC is light, quiet and stupid reliable. I had 6 people shoot an extra stage at the last match I went to and ALL of them asked me for a build list. This week I have 3 new shooters scheduled for a pre-match range day Saturday and a local match the following Sunday with the PCC. We had more shooters signed up as PCC than Carry Optics, Revolver and Single Stack combined at one of our locals. 

 

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, Darqusoull13 said:

My PCC is light, quiet and stupid reliable. I had 6 people shoot an extra stage at the last match I went to and ALL of them asked me for a build list.

Your PCC is lighter than a lot of the handguns people are shooting at the matches.  It's sick, man!

[Darqusoull13]

You're more than welcome to shoot it at the steels match this Sunday too mreed, shoot me a PM. See you at Area 4! 

On that topic, Shooting USA did a brief interview with Mike Foley where he gave some thoughts relevant to this discussion. He basically said they see PCC as a "run what you brung" division that they don't want to spend a bunch of time limiting. Starts about 8 minutes into the interview for anyone wanting to skip ahead. 

Shooting USA Interview

I think this is going to be a home run. PCC's capable of winning nationals can be had fully set up for under $1500 including optics and a rig. That's on par with Production division level of investment to an entry into the sport. 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Darqusoull13
Added back on the topic, popped a shot too early, don't DQ me!

[jrswanson1]

I put a 9mm AR together for $750, another $40 for two extra mags, six mags total.  $85 for a TRS-25 on a riser, and I'm done.  I could drop another $100 for a brake and still be under what I put into my Limited pistol.

[Darqusoull13]

If you're running a 16-ish" barrel, maybe skip the brake unless you put one on to look pretty. We tested about 10 different loads and even a major load for a 5" open gun didn't come close to making a big difference in the recoil impulse. That might also just be this particular comp though. In shorter barrel (5-6") PCC's, a comp might make a difference. The consensus when we shot was that there was so little difference in recoil impulse that it was easier to just have a singe 3-Gun, Production and PCC load at whatever felt best at minor PF in the production gun. 

[Alaskapopo]

13 hours ago, bret said:

this is part of the problem with PCC, it's supposed to follow Handgun Rules except a few changes to accommodate start positions, classifiers and how the gun is handled.

looks like it needs a new rule set of its own, not a bastardized version of handgun Rules and things made up as it goes along, doesn't seem like it was very well thought out or implemented by USPSA.

what is wrong with limiting magazines to 141.25 mm or 171.25 mm, the same rules as apply in handgun rules?

There is no problem. Been having fun with it. There is no practical reason to limit length. Live and let live. 

 

[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, bret said:

this is part of the problem with PCC, it's supposed to follow Handgun Rules except a few changes to accommodate start positions, classifiers and how the gun is handled.

looks like it needs a new rule set of its own, not a bastardized version of handgun Rules and things made up as it goes along, doesn't seem like it was very well thought out or implemented by USPSA.

what is wrong with limiting magazines to 141.25 mm or 171.25 mm, the same rules as apply in handgun rules?

What problem are you talking about, other than apparently some people acting like ROs can't read the rules? The PCC appendix is clear on magazine capacity and length.  (No limits.)  Why should this change, when it is clear already?

Just like any other division, there are specific equipment requirements.  All are listed.  And indeed it does follow Handgun rules.

Looks to me (and to the other people who are shooting it) that in general, it works perfectly well.  Sure, there are minor items that should perhaps be re-thought, but this is true of every division, especially when the division is new and just starting out.

 

 

[PPGMD]

As someone who primarily shot production, I like not having to reload except for the mandatory reloads.

[Garrett]

On September 8, 2016 at 11:25 AM, bret said:

what is wrong with limiting magazines to 141.25 mm or 171.25 mm, the same rules as apply in handgun rules?

And what would this accomplish? A 100-round Beta mag for a Colt or HK platform is shorter than 170mm. 

All that rule would accomplish is to disqualify some guns that short mags don't exist for. 

[Gooldylocks]

On September 8, 2016 at 8:25 AM, bret said:

what is wrong with limiting magazines to 141.25 mm or 171.25 mm, the same rules as apply in handgun rules?

Also, it would be more or less impossible to measure most of the PCC mags out there, since they curve. The only ones you could get an accurate measurement on would be like the colt style stick mags, which in their most common form are too long.

[bret]

On 9/18/2016 at 1:10 PM, Gooldylocks said:

Also, it would be more or less impossible to measure most of the PCC mags out there, since they curve. The only ones you could get an accurate measurement on would be like the colt style stick mags, which in their most common form are too long.

it is relatively simple to measure a magazine, even if it curves.

a guage would be easy to build or use a square and a caliper.

[rishii]

PCC reminds me of how it used to be when I started in the mid 80's

there were no divisions, every one shot heads up and you run what you brung, back then the rules were simpler

there were guys running 6 shot revolvers, the lastest 45 compgun, & 15 shot wonder 9's, all going for the match win

 

The PCC rules are fine, lets keep it simple, if a MD wants to force us to reload, then throw a standards stage in

lets not muck it up by making it over complicated  

[StealthyBlagga]

On 9/8/2016 at 8:25 AM, bret said:

what is wrong with limiting magazines to 141.25 mm or 171.25 mm, the same rules as apply in handgun rules?

Everything. It makes ZERO sense in the context of a long gun. Magazine length only ever made sense in the context of a CONCEALABLE handgun (the raison d'etre of our sport) - a carbine is not intended to be concealable.

[Southpaw]

9 hours ago, rishii said:

The PCC rules are fine, lets keep it simple, if a MD wants to force us to reload, then throw a standards stage in

lets not muck it up by making it over complicated

This.

I think pretty much all PCC shooters don't want any kind of mag limit.  Seems like it's only the non PCC shooters that want to add the mag limit.

[bret]

4 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Everything. It makes ZERO sense in the context of a long gun. Magazine length only ever made sense in the context of a CONCEALABLE handgun (the raison d'etre of our sport) - a carbine is not intended to be concealable.

a limited gun with a 140mm magazine and a open gun with a 170mm magazine is Concealable?

USPSA is about concealable guns?

 

[StealthyBlagga]

5 hours ago, bret said:

a limited gun with a 140mm magazine and a open gun with a 170mm magazine is Concealable?

USPSA is about concealable guns?

 

YES, that is the origin of the rule. For sure, it is now a SPORT that has migrated far away from its origins, but the genesis of this rule was sound for handguns. I have CCW'd a full-size STI Limited gun with 140mm magazines - it is quite doable, though certainly not optimal.

Magazine length limits just make no sense for PCC (or indeed any box magazine fed long gun). Indeed, given the diverse lengths and capacities of factory standard PCC magazines, I would say that imposing arbitrary (and pistol-centric) magazine length limits would be damaging and serve only to inhibit growth of what is shaping up to be a popular new division. Not sure why anyone would want to do such a thing.

Edited September 20, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[bret]

makes no sense to use handgun rules for PPC.

[davsco]

let's keep PCC the FUN division, anything goes.  still for the most part cheaper entry point than limited or certainly open, so use some of that "saved" money to get that super big stick or drum and have some fun.

[bret]

1 minute ago, davsco said:

let's keep PCC the FUN division, anything goes.  still for the most part cheaper entry point than limited or certainly open, so use some of that "saved" money to get that super big stick or drum and have some fun.

great idea, keep Carbines out of pistol matches.