Heavy bullets?

[olp73]

Hi

This is something that I have thought about for a while. Whatever I try I just can’t get heavy bullets to shoot as good as the lighter once.

I have tried several barrels, 1:9, 1:8 or even 1:7. The result always seems to be the same. 55gr or 52gr HP shoots better.

At least, out to 300 meters. Maybe I need longer ranges to see the benefits? What are your experiences?

[HRider]

My JP likes Fiocchi's  77gr SMK load. I wish it shot a 55gr load as good as it does the 77, then I would have almost the same point of aim/point of impact for good ammo vs hoser stuff that I use for targets less than 100yds. The only reason that I use 77s in that rifle is because they are more accurate in that particular rifle.

Hurley

[target4fun]

I would start with what shoots best in your rifle.  That being said heavy bullets tend to wind drift less but most folks dont shoot past 300 anyways.  You really see a difference when it hits 400-500 with some wind.  But if your rifle doesnt shoot them well then I would stick to what works.  Some like 68's some like 55's, 77's etc.  Barrel twist does have a factor but trying it at the range is best. 

[mpeltier]

What barrels have you tried?

What bullets (brand)?

Is the ammo factory or reloads?

What group sizes at 100m?

What optic are you using to test?

 

[biglou13]

are you judging "good", by shot group size?

how are you testing barrels?   rebuilding, different uppers, different rifle

have you ladder or Optimal charge weight tested each?

did you test each bullet and barrel first at 100?

are barrels broken in?... i have a suspicion that a barrel shoots poorly until broken in

have you factored in user error?

 

 

 

[olp73]

What barrels have you tried?

• Lothar Walther SS 1:7,7
• DPMS Cromo 1:9
• Criterion 1:8 CL

What bullets (brand)?

• Sierra MK 
• Nosler CC
• Hornady 55gr FMJ
• Danish ss109
• Berger

Is the ammo factory or reloads?

• Reloads

What group sizes at 100m?

• About a MOA, a little bit more, 

What optic are you using to test?

• S&B Shortdot in Larue
• Zeiss V8 in Spuhr

[olp73]

are you judging "good", by shot group size?

Yes, I'm (good is less than 3/4" at 100 meters.)

how are you testing barrels?   rebuilding, different uppers, different rifle

 Over the years I have owned several uppers, I tend to test uppers for precision. I guess I just like to shoot groups.

have you ladder or Optimal charge weight tested each?

No, I can't say that I have. 

did you test each bullet and barrel first at 100?

Yes. 

are barrels broken in?... i have a suspicion that a barrel shoots poorly until broken in

Could you please tell me more about this? I guess not. 

have you factored in user error?

If I know how to shoot? I like to think so  

[biglou13]

If you can shoot consistent sub MOA with a known load.  I'm inclined to say that user error is minimal....

every bullet, and bullet velocity and barrel will will have specific accuraccy points also known as node. In a nutshell it is finding the best harmonics, that allow bullet to be more accurate.  http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-overview/4529824091.        Be careful this could lead you to the dark side of benchrest shooting/ reloading

i'd bet that if you fine tuned you load for proper bullet weight and twist rate, using quality components you should be able to get sub MOA if not better on any quality barrel.  

my first precision rifle went from .75 MOA  to .25 moa all day long.    And sub .20 on ocassion.   All these results with the OCW process and METICULOUS reloading process.  If you like to shoot tiny groups I suggest to read up on OCW and some bench rest like reloading procedures. Warning. This may lead you to dark side.   While do have arbor press and dies I refuse to turn necks... 

as far as break in ......  I've only shot in a few brand new barrels.... And have found out they all need a break in period,...  There is a lot of mysticism around this process...   Basically frequent barrel cleaning first 100 rounds or so...

My standards for AR/ m4gery are lower than precision bolt gun.  I'm satisfied with MOA accuracy.  And very happy with consistent sub MOA accuracy. 

[72stick]

Just my 2 cents, but gas guns in general require more attention to the basics of marksmanship than the bolt guns. If there's a weakness in your basic marksmanship skills, the gas gun will let you know. 

Once you've found the OCW for the bullet you want to use at the distance you'll be shooting the most, you'll need to cancel out as much of your body signature as possible, if you want small groups with the AR platform. It is capable of producing some nice groups, but you have to  work a little harder to get results. 

I can't remeber the title, but the Army manual for shooting the M16 does a really good job of explaining position shooting and diagnosing issues by reading your targets. 

The target never lies. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by 72stick

[Alaskapopo]

I have found 77 to be the most accurate. But you need to like anything work up a good load. I have about 6 different loads that provide sub moa accuracy with 77 grain SMK's. 

[Dan Sierpina]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 0:18 PM, olp73 said:

Hi

 

This is something that I have thought about for a while. Whatever I try I just can’t get heavy bullets to shoot as good as the lighter once.

 

I have tried several barrels, 1:9, 1:8 or even 1:7. The result always seems to be the same. 55gr or 52gr HP shoots better.

 

At least, out to 300 meters. Maybe I need longer ranges to see the benefits? What are your experiences?

 

My question is, if the lighter bullets shoot better, why do you feel the need to shoot heavy bullets? Are you shooting paper at distances beyond 300 meters? Or is it steel targets at longer distances?

[olp73]

This is also motivated by a general gun interest and the fact that heavier bullets in 223 stretches the calibers preforms significantly.

That said, yes we have IPSC classic targets far beyond 300 meters in matches and wind becomes a major factor………..on steel targets above 200 meters I feel it gives me peace of mind. Judging only after the sound it makes.  

Edited August 23, 2016 by olp73

[Alaskapopo]

On 8/20/2016 at 4:09 PM, Dan Sierpina said:

My question is, if the lighter bullets shoot better, why do you feel the need to shoot heavy bullets? Are you shooting paper at distances beyond 300 meters? Or is it steel targets at longer distances?

Because heavier bullets are better in every way except costs. They hit harder, deflect wind better and usually are more accurate. I use light FMJ for close range targets but for everything else 77 SMK.

Pat

[outerlimits]

2 hours ago, Alaskapopo said:

Because heavier bullets are better in every way except costs. They hit harder, deflect wind better and usually are more accurate. I use light FMJ for close range targets but for everything else 77 SMK.

Pat

hey Pat, you forgot they drop like rocks as well.

[TonytheTiger]

21 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

hey Pat, you forgot they drop like rocks as well.

How so? Past 600yds  my 75gr load shoots noticeably flatter than any fast light bullet load I've tried. 

[Alaskapopo]

18 hours ago, outerlimits said:

hey Pat, you forgot they drop like rocks as well.

Actually no the drop evens out at longer range due to the fact they keep their velocity longer because of a much better BC. There is a reason no one in the precision rifle community that uses the .223 uses light bullets. They suck at longer range.

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[olp73]

Past 600 yards?.............doesn’t it happened a lot sooner? like past 300? 

[kurtm]

Physically speaking they all drop like rocks........32 feet per second squared!

 

Use heavies if it makes you feel good. I have never seen the need for the ranges we shoot, but if they give you confidence, get er done! I only use heavies when I need penetration and am limited to a carbine caliber....and steel and paper DON'T need penetration.

[Stlhead]

 

Wait, are you telling me that a 55 grain bullet will fall just as fast as a 80 grain bullet?  If I drop a sphere made of solid gold, and a hollow sphere also made of solid gold, but with only thin walls, and exactly the same exterior dimensions and surface finish, from the top of the Empire State building, they would strike the sidewalk below (or a pedestrian) at exactly the same time?  And that the formula to determine the acceleration imparted by gravity on an object was 9.8 meters per second squared?  Well that would lead me to believe that if a light bullet traveled at exactly the same speed as a heavy bullet it would have the same drop.  But I can make a light bullet go faster than a heavy bullet for the same amount of chamber pressure and recoil.  But generally heavy bullets have less drag and loose velocity slower than light bullets.  So that means that light bullets will be going faster, and therefore have less drop than a heavy bullet until the effect of the less drag has a chance to allow the heavy bullet to be going faster than the light bullet?  Holly shit, that means that light bullets may be the best choice for hitting steel targets and cardboard at reasonable distances, say less than 500 yards?  If only there was a sport where 95% or more of the targets where less than 500 yards and speed was important and downrange energy was not.

 

 

[wgj3]

And, I would like to add a side of fries to that plate of sarcasm...

[outerlimits]

ballistic calculators are your friend.

[californiasushi]

Even at 300 yards the difference between shooting 55's and 77's can be a lot depending on the size of your target and wind conditions. In a 10mph wind you're talking about almost a 3" difference in drift between the two (estimated velocities from a 20" barrel). If you're shooting a small target or for score that can be a miss or quite a few dropped points.

Also, at the Creedmoor Cup East (big High Power match) a few years ago, some dude was shooting 52's from his 20" barrel and it was horrible at the 600y line. Quite a few misses and he was working the entire 5 ring. The rounds were subsonic by the time it got to us in the pits and it was kinda funny and kinda dangerous. Those 50-55gr Varmint/match rounds might be good at 100 or 200 yards but I'd much prefer the heavies at longer distances.

For practical accuracy at distance I'd much rather have a 77gr load that shoots a 5-shot 3/4 MOA group than a 52gr load that shoots 1/2. The drift and energy is better and has more useful benefits. Unless you're shooting 100 yard benchrest competitions with your AR15, I don't really think it's worth getting worked up over losing a couple tenths of an inch in accuracy at 100 yards but YMMV.

[Alaskapopo]

On 8/25/2016 at 9:52 AM, outerlimits said:

ballistic calculators are your friend.

Yes they are and time for you to take a look at one. 

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

19 hours ago, californiasushi said:

Even at 300 yards the difference between shooting 55's and 77's can be a lot depending on the size of your target and wind conditions. In a 10mph wind you're talking about almost a 3" difference in drift between the two (estimated velocities from a 20" barrel). If you're shooting a small target or for score that can be a miss or quite a few dropped points.

Also, at the Creedmoor Cup East (big High Power match) a few years ago, some dude was shooting 52's from his 20" barrel and it was horrible at the 600y line. Quite a few misses and he was working the entire 5 ring. The rounds were subsonic by the time it got to us in the pits and it was kinda funny and kinda dangerous. Those 50-55gr Varmint/match rounds might be good at 100 or 200 yards but I'd much prefer the heavies at longer distances.

For practical accuracy at distance I'd much rather have a 77gr load that shoots a 5-shot 3/4 MOA group than a 52gr load that shoots 1/2. The drift and energy is better and has more useful benefits. Unless you're shooting 100 yard benchrest competitions with your AR15, I don't really think it's worth getting worked up over losing a couple tenths of an inch in accuracy at 100 yards but YMMV.

Agreed. I use 55 grain ball for targets inside 200 yards but for any long shots its time to break out good bullets which means heavies.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Apology to Outerlimits for the sarcasm. Agree to disagree. 
Pat