Fred63 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I'm just starting down the 9 major path and have read these forums extensively but I'm still unsure of this subject. What I've read doesn't give a very clear picture of what I should be concerned about as some will comment primers flattening and stop whilst another will say it is expected and is normal. Some even opt for SRP over SPP or different brands which will not change any pressure issues but mask them. As safety is our main concern and we have a lot invested in our guns, hands, eyes etc I was wondering if any of the more experienced experimenters out there could post pic's for comment as I'm sure opinions will differ greatly. I'm not concerned with what is obviously a catastrophic example we would all recognise but more with the fine line between acceptable / unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge40 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Thats a good photo. Try this, shoot a factory 9 like a winchester white box and look at the primer compared to that photo. It will help understand the flattening aspect of it. The cratering is a little harder to spot. Think of it like the pressure is trying to form the primer around the firing pin. The primer will be raised around the indentation from the strike. The other think to look for is the head stamp fading. If you see that you gotta be getting close to a kaboom. With 9 major your so far out of sammi spec that you probably are going to show some pressure signs as far as primer flattening not matter what you do. Its a fine line loading 9 major. I know some will argue with that but I personally would eat the cost and go to super comp instead of taking the risks with the 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullets Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) Thats a good photo. Try this, shoot a factory 9 like a winchester white box and look at the primer compared to that photo. It will help understand the flattening aspect of it. The cratering is a little harder to spot. Think of it like the pressure is trying to form the primer around the firing pin. The primer will be raised around the indentation from the strike. The other think to look for is the head stamp fading. If you see that you gotta be getting close to a kaboom. With 9 major your so far out of sammi spec that you probably are going to show some pressure signs as far as primer flattening not matter what you do. Its a fine line loading 9 major. I know some will argue with that but I personally would eat the cost and go to super comp instead of taking the risks with the 9.posts like these made me so scared to start loading 9mm major. Once i did it, i realized that it wasnt as bad as i thought. Definitely take caution when loading 9mm major. Do the research on your powder and loads and start your powder charge lower than your research and slowly work your way up. If you take necessary cautions you will be fine. I personally think that 9mm major is taking over and eventually you wont see many if any 38 supers. I use srp which may mask preasure signs but thats because they are better at handling preasure Edited June 19, 2016 by Bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge40 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Im not saying its not safe you just need to be careful. Then again loading anything you need to be careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred63 Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 I'm not scared Bullets and don't mean to scare anyone else either, just the opposite. Knowing what to look for and how to interpret it correctly gives the confidence to proceed without being scared of it. I've never had the " she'll be rite mate......... until it isn't " attitude and have never been afraid to ask a stupid question, there are always others out there wanting to know the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterclay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I've never had a primer that wasn't flattened from my 9major. I started with load data from someone that I bought the gun from. I check the powder charge and oal more often when I load 9major ammo. I also check the powder charge with balance scales and digital scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
works for ammo Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I'm was going to post this question earlier. Hope you don't mind if I post a pic of my primers in your thread. I'm using a moly 125gr 9mm with 3.3 grains of clays out of a 5" 1911 . Are these signs of over pressure? Haven't cronoed aNY rounds but I think I'm close to max charge. 9 minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterclay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Yep, your there. Go buy a chronograph in the morning, seriously. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
works for ammo Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I just pulled a bullet and I think I'm over crimping. I had some leading alao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterclay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Yes, just crimp enough to take the bell/flare out of the brass. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FightFireJay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 The problem with pressure signs in pistol cartridges, is that they tend to vary a lot. And in many cases you will be WAY over pressure by the time you see signs. This is only made worse when using SRP or SMPP. Some manufacturers actually use the same product for small magnum pistol primers and small rifle primers. Consider that a primer that is made to handle 55k psi (with no pressure signs, SRP/SMPP) gets used in a 9mm major load won't show pressure signs until well after you reach proof load pressures. Proof load for 9mm is 45.5k psi. If you see pressure signs on SRP/SMPP primers, you are probably +30% over PROOF load psi. Also, 9x23 Win uses a standard SPP and it's rated at 46k psi. Just something to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred63 Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 Works for ammo don't mind at all, that's what this thread is for. I find this very confusing:- look for pressure signs like flattened primers etc :- flattened primers are to be expected So there are obviously varying degrees this and is difficult to convey in words so I appreciate the pic and any comments on them from anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred63 Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 These are range pickups.. If these were yours would you say ok and keep shooting this load or scrap it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 In the pic, I would be comfortable with 1, 2, & 3 but just looking at the picture, I would not want to continue shooting 4 thru 8. In person, I might have a different opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterclay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I would say most of mine look like #3 or 4. I try only shoot the 9major brass once in the open gun, but still will load minor in it. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) This is flat: And, you'll note this was shot from an M&P . AND at a Production only match. You don't have to shoot 9MAJOR to be concerned with pressure. Edited June 19, 2016 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge40 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Holy smokes sarge that is flat. I can't believe ou can read the head stamp anymore. That's scary. At least a 9 major gun is designed to handle high pressure but an m & p is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDA Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Here is WST at 4.4gr, 4.5gr, and 4.6gr with a 180gr lead bullet. You can easily see the difference in the primers. 4,4 was good, 4.5 was beginning to crater, but 4.6 was cratering and starting to push the firing pin dimple back out with only a slight increase in velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Do any of y'all mic cases. This was fairly standard practice back 10-15 years ago to check and see if pressure was getting out of hand. I did more with rifle cartridges than pistol but believe it may be a more reliable way to tell FWIW I've loaded 9major for two years now out of a 45 year reloading career and find it very simple process BE CAREFUL with all reloading as state before Use good brass clean it , inspect it and use the stuff that looks good from inspection Then start your load work up from trusted information ( you choose who you trust) I went with what the builder suggested as a start load and worked to an accurate flat shooting load at 169/170 PF with a very low SD I've also found for me and my gun that 115gr bullets with slow burn rate powders have less "mic'd" expansion than the same PF loads with 124gr bullets, Problem there is, it isn't apples to apples since I use different powder with the 115gr bullets than the 124. Suggest you keep it simple and use one of the 3 or 4 powders commonly recommended in these forms and start low and work up to power factor with a good chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesm Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Works for ammo, your post #8 looks like they might have been shot in my Beretta 92. It does this to factory ammo since many Berettas have a camphorated firing pin hole in the breech face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Here is WST at 4.4gr, 4.5gr, and 4.6gr with a 180gr lead bullet. You can easily see the difference in the primers. 4,4 was good, 4.5 was beginning to crater, but 4.6 was cratering and starting to push the firing pin dimple back out with only a slight increase in velocity. Wow, what was your oal? I just finished loading similar and higher weights of wst with a 180 @ 1.185. No signs of pressure that I could tell. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDA Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 OAL was 1.150" and I only got to 918fps at 4.6. I switched to 700X and my starting load of 4.4 gave me 964fps with no primer issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I'm was going to post this question earlier. Hope you don't mind if I post a pic of my primers in your thread. I'm using a moly 125gr 9mm with 3.3 grains of clays out of a 5" 1911 . Are these signs of over pressure? Haven't cronoed aNY rounds but I think I'm close to max charge. 9 minor. That is primer flow and absolutely a sign of high pressure. Fast powders in 9mm minor loads (especially paired with heavy bullets) very easily get you into high pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 OAL was 1.150" and I only got to 918fps at 4.6. I switched to 700X and my starting load of 4.4 gave me 964fps with no primer issues. Huh. Well glad nothing went wrong and that you've got a good powder! I like WSF in 40 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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