Sideline Coaching

[ZackJones]

I'm sure we've all shot a club match where an RO or someone called hits/misses for a competitor.

What are your thoughts on this? Is it an okay practice or should it not be permitted? Should it be permitted at club matches only and only after the shooter requests it prior to starting their course of fire?

I have my opinion but I'll save it for later after I've heard yours.

[Mark R]

For a local match with nothing on the line except bragging rights, I see nothing wrong with it...especially if you are running a new shooter, and/or new to steel shooting.

Once a prize table comes up, all advice should be stopped. IMO.

[jdphotoguy]

Have seen ROs at local matches call hits/misses for preteens, new shooters and a couple of older gentlemen that have poor eyesight and are nearly deaf.

In the cases mentioned I have mixed feels. On the one hand I want to help the new shooters and those with physical issues, but on the other hand, when you start bending the rules, where do you draw the line.

At a sanctioned match I think we should follow the rules to the letter, for everyone. Calling hits/misses and other coaching should be left for training sessions and non sanctioned matches.

[Racinready300ex]

IMO you shouldn't, although I understand it in some cases.

I was RO for a guy once who was shooting the stages in about 3 seconds. And he was expecting me to call his miss on plate 4 before he hit the stop plate. How am I supposed to be able to do that in the .25 second I have to process his miss and call it out to him while watching his gun?

People start to expect it, and then will get upset if you don't. That has been my experience anyway.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

This really only applies to newer shooters right?

Nobody is calling hits or misses for those who have been doing it for a while with average skill.

So yeah, if someone needs some help that seems fair.

I've had times where (as the RO) I saw a guy clip a plate, he thinks he missed and re engage so I'll say hit.

I sure wouldn't call a miss though. Talk about a way to screw up someone's run!

In general, it seems the best thing to do is keep quiet and let the shooter work through it. Unless they ask for help, I think a lot of well intended help quietly pisses people off.

[scottlep]

New shooters, New Juniors, OK with me for local/tier 1 matches, but not higher level matches. Other shooters, not OK at any level. You'll never learn to call your shots if someone else is calling them for you. USPSA has a rule against coaching. Not sure if it is in the SCSA rules, but it should be.

The only thing an RO should be saying to the shooter is Make Ready, Are you Ready, Stand By, Prepare for your next string(for SCSA matches), If you are Finished Unload and Show Clear, If clear hammer down and holster, Range is clear. "Stop" may be necessary in the case of a safety issue. Other than that you can be called for interference according to what is taught in NROI class

Edited April 27, 2016 by scottlep

[Sarge]

I would find it distracting if I were the shooter

[revolver45]

Coaching to me is just that, coaching.

It is done at the instructional level to those who don't know and are in the learning process.

This, in my opinion is where it should be allowed, and in any discipline. ICORE; USPSA; IPSC; etc.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

IMO you shouldn't, although I understand it in some cases.

I was RO for a guy once who was shooting the stages in about 3 seconds. And he was expecting me to call his miss on plate 4 before he hit the stop plate. How am I supposed to be able to do that in the .25 second I have to process his miss and call it out to him while watching his gun?

People start to expect it, and then will get upset if you don't. That has been my experience anyway.

That's funny!

I'd think a guy with the skill to shoot 3 second runs would have been around long enough to have been told that's not how this game is played.

[bigtimelarry]

When I run the Timer I try not to say anything. If they ask to let me know when they miss (which rarely happens) I try to get the person

writing the times or running the Nook to tell them. I've said miss before and the shooter nicked it and because I said miss he went back

and probably took 4 shots to hit it. I felt terrible.

[ZackJones]

Appreciate the feedback and it's mostly inline with my thoughts. At the club match I'm okay with someone calling misses if the shooter requests it, regardless of skill level. What I'm not okay with is the RO running the timer calling them. If the RO is looking for hits on plates then he's not watching the gun. I've had shooters ask me if they hit or missed a plate and I tell them I have no idea that I'm looking at the gun and not down range at the plates.

Does the paragraph below cover coaching adequately?

Coaching: For level 1 (club matches) a competitor may request the scoring RO, or other squad member other than the RO running the timer, call misses during the course of fire. The competitor should notify the RO prior to commencing the course of fire. Coaching is not permitted at level 2 or higher events.

Reshoots will not be given if an RO mistakenly calls a hit a miss or a miss a hit.

Edited April 27, 2016 by ZackJones

[Gooldylocks]

Appreciate the feedback and it's mostly inline with my thoughts. At the club match I'm okay with someone calling misses if the shooter requests it, regardless of skill level. What I'm not okay with is the RO running the timer calling them. If the RO is looking for hits on plates then he's not watching the gun. I've had shooters ask me if they hit or missed a plate and I tell them I have no idea that I'm looking at the gun and not down range at the plates.

Does the paragraph below cover coaching adequately?

Coaching: For level 1 (club matches) a competitor may request the scoring RO, or other squad member other than the RO running the timer, call misses during the course of fire. The competitor should notify the RO prior to commencing the course of fire. Coaching is not permitted at level 2 or higher events.

Reshoots will not be given if an RO mistakenly calls a hit a miss or a miss a hit.

Perhaps the rules already in the USPSA rulebook should be our guide. They essentially say that anyone, of any skill level, may have anyone else of any skill level coach them with match director approval at a level 1.

D getting coached by a C, or a GM coaching another GM, so long as it's approved then it's fine.

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[jkrispies]

Appreciate the feedback and it's mostly inline with my thoughts. At the club match I'm okay with someone calling misses if the shooter requests it, regardless of skill level. What I'm not okay with is the RO running the timer calling them. If the RO is looking for hits on plates then he's not watching the gun. I've had shooters ask me if they hit or missed a plate and I tell them I have no idea that I'm looking at the gun and not down range at the plates.

Does the paragraph below cover coaching adequately?

Coaching: For level 1 (club matches) a competitor may request the scoring RO, or other squad member other than the RO running the timer, call misses during the course of fire. The competitor should notify the RO prior to commencing the course of fire. Coaching is not permitted at level 2 or higher events.

Reshoots will not be given if an RO mistakenly calls a hit a miss or a miss a hit.

This works.

Frankly, I don't worry too much about folks "coaching" since any shooter who needs their hits called isn't in any real competition to win, at least in my experience. If they're a beginner and that's what helps keep them in the game long enough to progress to self-sufficiency, then that's not only a small price to pay but probably should be encouraged to keep the sport alive.

Personally, all I want to hear is the starting sequence and beep. I don't even want to hear my times called out, but I don't complain about it if they are. I don't mind people chatting behind me or whatever, but within arms reach around me, I want to be left to concentrate and the RO, score keeper, etc., all concentrating on doing their jobs properly.

[waterfowlwidowmaker]

I agree with jkrispies, on all accounts.

[ZackJones]

Appreciate all of the feedback. I was asked from DNROI for input so I figured I'd bounce it off you guys first. Coaching will be added to the rule book revision that's in progress now.

[b1gcountry]

I try not to coach, even new shooters who need it because sometimes it isn't wanted. If I'm running a new shooter, and they are having trouble, I will ask first if they want help or coaching. I try to do a minimum between the beeps. I do try to let them know to keep going if they miss the stop plate and start ulsc.

I do like to know I've missed a plate during a run for scoring reasons. It can be easy to race through the stage and not know you had a miss on the score sheet until results are posted.

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[ZackJones]

You should be informed of misses between strings. Otherwise you don't have an opportunity to have the target checked.

[jkrispies]

You should be informed of misses between strings. Otherwise you don't have an opportunity to have the target checked.

Out of curiosity, is that written somewhere in the rules? For instance, if the RO calls a miss on he first string but the shooter says it was an edger but also states, "We can check the plates after I'm finished," and then he completes the remaining four strings before checking the plates, would that somehow invalidate the argued hit if an edger is detected after the remaining four strings are run?

Edited May 1, 2016 by jkrispies

[photoracer]

Generally yes as that is the normal way to do it. However if the shooter wants to check it immediately, then safing the stage and going to check has to be done. The few times its happened to me I have just gone the other way and checked it afterwards. Mainly because I can see the edger the majority of the time.

[b1gcountry]

I tend to ask the ro not too tell me my time. I still want to know my misses. I don't have many.

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[ZackJones]

Out of curiosity, is that written somewhere in the rules? For instance, if the RO calls a miss on he first string but the shooter says it was an edger but also states, "We can check the plates after I'm finished," and then he completes the remaining four strings before checking the plates, would that somehow invalidate the argued hit if an edger is detected after the remaining four strings are run?

Yes. Under Section 6 Scoring (quoted below). Misses should always be be checked after each string but I know it's more common to just check after the course of fire because it's a pain to unload, show clear, holster then check the target and resume the course of fire with Make Ready.

When a Range Official scores a miss, it is the shooter’s responsibility to appeal the decision at the end of that particular string. The Range Official will go downrange to inspect the target.

If the bullet has left a clear mark on the edge or face of the plate, it will be scored as a hit. If there is no discernible mark, it will be scored as a miss. (See 6.4)

If the competitor still feels the call is in error, he may appeal to the Range Master. The Range Masters call will be final and no further appeals will be allowed with respect to the scoring decision. Once the next string of fire has begun, there will be no further opportunity to appeal the Range Official’s call.

Edited May 2, 2016 by ZackJones

[Pasley]

Where I shoot generally only the very slow, old, deaf and half blind get coaching on hits and misses.

[Flexmoney]

For a local match with nothing on the line except bragging rights, I see nothing wrong with it...especially if you are running a new shooter, and/or new to steel shooting.

I'd offer that, competition is competition. Should it matter if there is a prize table or just a smiley face?

If somebody gains an advantage by a buddy/coach calling out...then that impacts the competition. Can that really be fair?

[Nimitz]

As a MD for a monthly Tier 1 match here's what I do. IF the shooter requests help to call hits/misses prior to shooting the RO is allowed to help. However, the RO running the shooter is not since they are supposed to be looking at the gun and nothing else so how could they possibly call hits/misses? The scorekeeper? Ok. Or a designated friend on the squad ... Ok.

As a MD I need to constantly balance conducting a fair match for everyone against customer service .... Ensuring everyone has a good time so they will come back.

I see nothing wrong with shooters requesting assistance at a tier 1 match .... Anyone want to try an argue a competitive advantage for someone who needs to wait for their buddy to call "miss" before reengaging the target?

[Nimitz]

You should be informed of misses between strings. Otherwise you don't have an opportunity to have the target checked.

Out of curiosity, is that written somewhere in the rules? For instance, if the RO calls a miss on he first string but the shooter says it was an edger but also states, "We can check the plates after I'm finished," and then he completes the remaining four strings before checking the plates, would that somehow invalidate the argued hit if an edger is detected after the remaining four strings are run?

No.

Either you check the targets immediately after the run in question or the RO's call stands. You can't determine which hit on a plate was from which run after 5 strings since the shooter could have engaged that same plate on another string more than once ....

Edited May 9, 2016 by Nimitz