Big Boy rules

[ac4wordplay]

This was born of a fascinating discussion the other day. Most of us have heard the term "Big Boy rules", and many of us have used it. Some people have a very different interpretation of the phrase's meaning than other people. What does "Big Boy rules" mean to you?

[fishsticks]

Well, since it might have been me that threw it out there---

Big boy rules means regardless of a formal rule, when in the presence of firearms you follow the four rules of gun safety. Further, you shouldn't have to be monitored to do so. If you can be trusted to run around with a loaded gun shooting targets, you damn well better be able to be trusted to no hurt yourself or others off the clock and/or when no one is monitoring your actions.

[ac4wordplay]

Well, since it might have been me that threw it out there---

Big boy rules means regardless of a formal rule, when in the presence of firearms you follow the four rules of gun safety. Further, you shouldn't have to be monitored to do so. If you can be trusted to run around with a loaded gun shooting targets, you damn well better be able to be trusted to no hurt yourself or others off the clock and/or when no one is monitoring your actions.

Eric,

Thanks for weighing in. I hope you don't feel targeted - it was semi-coincidental that you recently used the phrase and I posted this question.

Best,

ac

[Sarge]

That's not what it means to me. To me it means this is a tough game that you need to adhere to the rules.

By being monitored , do you mean you should be able to do as you please during a match , off the clock, as long as you obey the 4 principles? I don't want to shoot in that environment. I really like shooting matches because I know EXACTLY what all the other competitors when I'm not watching

[BARRYJ]

Accept your dq like an adult. As in "put your big boy panties on". But I have never heard that phrase used for a match.

Edited April 24, 2016 by BARRYJ

[fishsticks]

Well, since it might have been me that threw it out there---

Big boy rules means regardless of a formal rule, when in the presence of firearms you follow the four rules of gun safety. Further, you shouldn't have to be monitored to do so. If you can be trusted to run around with a loaded gun shooting targets, you damn well better be able to be trusted to no hurt yourself or others off the clock and/or when no one is monitoring your actions.

Eric,

Thanks for weighing in. I hope you don't feel targeted - it was semi-coincidental that you recently used the phrase and I posted this question.

Best,

ac

Not at all. It's an interesting discussion and points out some of the good and bad in outlaw and formal rulesets.

[fishsticks]

That's not what it means to me. To me it means this is a tough game that you need to adhere to the rules.

By being monitored , do you mean you should be able to do as you please during a match , off the clock, as long as you obey the 4 principles? I don't want to shoot in that environment. I really like shooting matches because I know EXACTLY what all the other competitors when I'm not watching

I certainly don't think you can do as you please. And this discussion is more about 3gun outlaw vs USPSA MULTI-gun than it is about USPSA handgun rulesets specifically.

But--and we're just discussing here as a thought exercise so bear with me. Unsafe acts = dq, correct? So by extension, safe acts = allowed. How is it were ok issuing dq's for taking off a gun belt with the gun holstered, or bagging a gun facing the same berm as the safety table right beside, but not in a shooting box?

As a certified ro, I would certainly dq folks for these as they are specifically disallowed. But, are they unsafe?

Then the question becomes how many rules need added in USPSA multi gun or for PCC to avoid truly unsafe, as opposed to viewed as unsafe or could be under certain conditions unsafe?

Edited April 24, 2016 by fishsticks

[frgood]

Again, perspective (or context) plays an important part of being confused. In sports, to me, Big boy rules mean we're going by the official rules of the league. The rules were the champs, the pros, and the real competitors compete under. This is in contrast to local or 'friendly' rules often found at a club match.

I'm of the opinion because every club math I attend I hear the phrase "this is just a friendly match" or "We're just here to have fun" or "This isn't the Nationals". ironically, I have the most fun when all the rules are applied and we are competing. But I know that that is not what the yokels mean. The tendency is to let stuff slide and to not be too careful about scoring or time. Which is a shame since the scores are still posted and have an impact.

Honestly, I may be a D-class shooter. But I honestly believe that given time and effort I will improve. It is that challenge I look forward to . It is what I find 'fun'. One day (yes Virginia), I dream that I might be competitive.enough to play in the Big Boy pool.

[Gary Stevens]

When you play a game with deadly weapons you must have a rule set that does all it can to protect everyone. I believe part of the price of playing that game is to subject yourself to adherence to those rules, not just the ones you like, but all of them.

[ac4wordplay]

When you play a game with deadly weapons you must have a rule set that does all it can to protect everyone. I believe part of the price of playing that game is to subject yourself to adherence to those rules, not just the ones you like, but all of them.

Gary,

Thanks for contributing, I like this!

I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you.

[Reshoot]

I have never heard of it used in shooting competition. It means nothing to me so, I did not vote.

[terrydoc]

When you play a game with deadly weapons you must have a rule set that does all it can to protect everyone. I believe part of the price of playing that game is to subject yourself to adherence to those rules, not just the ones you like, but all of them.

Gary,

Thanks for contributing, I like this!

I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you.

ever heard of the rulebook?

[toothandnail]

Well, since it might have been me that threw it out there---

Big boy rules means regardless of a formal rule, when in the presence of firearms you follow the four rules of gun safety. Further, you shouldn't have to be monitored to do so. If you can be trusted to run around with a loaded gun shooting targets, you damn well better be able to be trusted to no hurt yourself or others off the clock and/or when no one is monitoring your actions.

THIS ^ ^

[ac4wordplay]

When you play a game with deadly weapons you must have a rule set that does all it can to protect everyone. I believe part of the price of playing that game is to subject yourself to adherence to those rules, not just the ones you like, but all of them.

Gary,

Thanks for contributing, I like this!

I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you.

ever heard of the rulebook?

Terrydoc,

Yes, of course, and it usually works quite well at USPSA matches (there is a rule book to reference). I've been to plenty of non-USPSA matches that don't have a rule book - maybe they have a sheet of paper with some rules on it (maybe they don't even have that much formalized) - they rely on word of mouth from the MD. Are you unaware that such matches occur?

[bikerburgess]

The context I normally see that being use is in reference to bad stage design where the shooter is invited to break a safety rule (normally the 180 with targets visible up range)

It's a way of saying all the responsibility for safety is on the shooter, and match set up and target presentation carry no fault

[Sarge]

That's not what it means to me. To me it means this is a tough game that you need to adhere to the rules.

By being monitored , do you mean you should be able to do as you please during a match , off the clock, as long as you obey the 4 principles? I don't want to shoot in that environment. I really like shooting matches because I know EXACTLY what all the other competitors when I'm not watching

I certainly don't think you can do as you please. And this discussion is more about 3gun outlaw vs USPSA MULTI-gun than it is about USPSA handgun rulesets specifically.

But--and we're just discussing here as a thought exercise so bear with me. Unsafe acts = dq, correct? So by extension, safe acts = allowed. How is it were ok issuing dq's for taking off a gun belt with the gun holstered, or bagging a gun facing the same berm as the safety table right beside, but not in a shooting box?

As a certified ro, I would certainly dq folks for these as they are specifically disallowed. But, are they unsafe?

Then the question becomes how many rules need added in USPSA multi gun or for PCC to avoid truly unsafe, as opposed to viewed as unsafe or could be under certain conditions unsafe?

Ah. I see where you're coming from. Taking a belt off with holstered gun initially seems harmless but when I look deeper I can see that it could lead to possibly becoming an issue. I think its handling the gun. And if somebody sees guys doing that then they may think it's ok to do other stuff like outright handle the gun. Or , if this were allowed by rule, I think it would lead to a lot of guns falling out of holsters. Which could ultimately lead to people picking them up. Now things can get unsafe potentially. I guess I see it as a slippery slope? I really like the mindset of let's leave our guns alone unless under supervision or in a universally known safe area.

Speaking of safe areas, is it really unsafe to load a mag on a table just because it says safety area on a sign. Of course not. But the potential is there for a tragic comedy of errors that could lead to a loaded gun. Sure I think it's a stretch but if we make it impossible then it won't likely happen

[Matt1]

Over here in IPSC it means that squad mates keep there mouths shut if there's an error in a shooters favour.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cnote]

That's not what it means to me. To me it means this is a tough game that you need to adhere to the rules.

By being monitored , do you mean you should be able to do as you please during a match , off the clock, as long as you obey the 4 principles? I don't want to shoot in that environment. I really like shooting matches because I know EXACTLY what all the other competitors when I'm not watching

I certainly don't think you can do as you please. And this discussion is more about 3gun outlaw vs USPSA MULTI-gun than it is about USPSA handgun rulesets specifically.

But--and we're just discussing here as a thought exercise so bear with me. Unsafe acts = dq, correct? So by extension, safe acts = allowed. How is it were ok issuing dq's for taking off a gun belt with the gun holstered, or bagging a gun facing the same berm as the safety table right beside, but not in a shooting box?

As a certified ro, I would certainly dq folks for these as they are specifically disallowed. But, are they unsafe?

Then the question becomes how many rules need added in USPSA multi gun or for PCC to avoid truly unsafe, as opposed to viewed as unsafe or could be under certain conditions unsafe?

Ah. I see where you're coming from. Taking a belt off with holstered gun initially seems harmless but when I look deeper I can see that it could lead to possibly becoming an issue. I think its handling the gun.

Don't have a rule book handy, what rule specifically forbids this, witnessed it recently, in a shooters meeting at that.

[ChuckS]

Don't have a rule book handy, what rule specifically forbids this, witnessed it recently, in a shooters meeting at that.

You have a computer online but you have no rulebook?

Here ya go:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

[Sarge]

Don't have a rule book handy, what rule specifically forbids this, witnessed it recently, in a shooters meeting at that.

You have a computer online but you have no rulebook?

Here ya go:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

But keep in mind, as I forgot too, the thread is not about USPSA. I think they were talking about 3gun initially

[cnote]

Don't have a rule book handy, what rule specifically forbids this, witnessed it recently, in a shooters meeting at that.

You have a computer online but you have no rulebook?

Here ya go:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

Thanks for the answer, and have you ever tried to use the rulebook on a iphone, i would rather load on a single stage press

[ChuckS]

Don't have a rule book handy, what rule specifically forbids this, witnessed it recently, in a shooters meeting at that.

You have a computer online but you have no rulebook?

Here ya go:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

But keep in mind, as I forgot too, the thread is not about USPSA. I think they were talking about 3gun initially

It is in the USPSA Rules forum.

But if we are talking USPSA 3 Gun:

5.2.1

Except when within the boundaries of a safety area or when under the supervision and direct

command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun

bag or in a holster on a belt worn by the competitor.

[sfchorn]

While some may think of some rules as "overly strict", most accidents don't have a single cause. They are "cascade failures", where if any one of the steps had not occurred, the incident would have been avoided.

That's why there is no ammo handling at the safe table. That's why there is a 90 degree median intercept rule. That's why there is a finger outside the trigger guard while loading, unloading or movement rule.

If we remove any one step from the accident scenario, there is a lot less permanent heartache.

Some people say this is a dangerous sport. I disagree. But it is a sport that is inherently unforgiving of accidents. Strict adherence to the safety rules is paramount.

[waktasz]

It usually means it's outlaw 3 gun with made up rules and F-ed up stages.

[nahanshew89]

Andre3000 is pretty good too.