USPSA MultiGun rules

[frag316]

Ehh, I'm splitting hairs, but I don't think a chamber-flagged gun in the hands of a competitor is the same as a gun in a competitor's holster. If we're going to DQ a guy for removing a belt with a holstered gun on it, then sweeping someone with a chamber-flagged gun should buy the all-expenses-paid trip to DQ.

IOW, if a guy sweeps me with a gun at a match, I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FORNICATION IF IT HAS A CHAMBER FLAG. One of us is going home.

[ac4wordplay]

If we deemed a chamber flag to be the equivalent of a holster, then we would presumably treat flagged long guns the same as holstered handguns - they would be considered to be "inert". We don't DQ people for bending over to tie their shoelace with a holstered handgun on their belt, and so sweeping someone with a flagged long gun would arguably be exactly the same situation (uncomfortable as we might all feel if we were the sweepee).

This is what I was hinting at when I asked about the chamber flag.

Chamber flags are designed/intended to go into the chamber. When used as intended they indicate an empty chamber, and a round can't be chambered when one is correctly inserted. They can do a good job of this, but there are issues with chamber flags (or their implementation). Often, they're not used as intended - they're inserted between the bolt and the receiver and extend into the mag well (or out the SG loading port). When used like this, they don't function as intended - they don't function as "chamber flags". Instead, they function like a "bolt out of battery device". A bolt out of battery device doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We frequently see a torn piece of SG ammo packaging used for this purpose. Again, this doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We also see chamber flags that have been modified so that they don't go into a chamber (again, functioning as a bolt out of battery device, and not an indicator of a clear chamber). Incorrect use of chamber flags is often due to a competitor's reluctance to put a piece of plastic (typically) into a hot (very hot?) chamber in fear that it may melt and leave residue that compromises firearm function/reliability.

Additionally (and per your earlier question), there isn't any USPSA MG rule book requirement for rifle/SG being transported from stage to stage in a bag/case (which was the situation in the OP) to have a chamber flag. So to answer your earlier question, no, at least two of the instances in the OP didn't have a chamber flag.

[jrswanson1]

If we deemed a chamber flag to be the equivalent of a holster, then we would presumably treat flagged long guns the same as holstered handguns - they would be considered to be "inert". We don't DQ people for bending over to tie their shoelace with a holstered handgun on their belt, and so sweeping someone with a flagged long gun would arguably be exactly the same situation (uncomfortable as we might all feel if we were the sweepee).

This is what I was hinting at when I asked about the chamber flag.

Chamber flags are designed/intended to go into the chamber. When used as intended they indicate an empty chamber, and a round can't be chambered when one is correctly inserted. They can do a good job of this, but there are issues with chamber flags (or their implementation). Often, they're not used as intended - they're inserted between the bolt and the receiver and extend into the mag well (or out the SG loading port). When used like this, they don't function as intended - they don't function as "chamber flags". Instead, they function like a "bolt out of battery device". A bolt out of battery device doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We frequently see a torn piece of SG ammo packaging used for this purpose. Again, this doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We also see chamber flags that have been modified so that they don't go into a chamber (again, functioning as a bolt out of battery device, and not an indicator of a clear chamber). Incorrect use of chamber flags is often due to a competitor's reluctance to put a piece of plastic (typically) into a hot (very hot?) chamber in fear that it may melt and leave residue that compromises firearm function/reliability.

Additionally (and per your earlier question), there isn't any USPSA MG rule book requirement for rifle/SG being transported from stage to stage in a bag/case (which was the situation in the OP) to have a chamber flag. So to answer your earlier question, no, at least two of the instances in the OP didn't have a chamber flag.

At the local matches I've been to, all rifles have to have a chamber flag when not being used. After the rifle and/or shotgun is cleared at the end of a stage, the chamber flag is supposed to be inserted and the bolt lowered. Failure to do so is supposed to result in a match DQ.

[ac4wordplay]

If we deemed a chamber flag to be the equivalent of a holster, then we would presumably treat flagged long guns the same as holstered handguns - they would be considered to be "inert". We don't DQ people for bending over to tie their shoelace with a holstered handgun on their belt, and so sweeping someone with a flagged long gun would arguably be exactly the same situation (uncomfortable as we might all feel if we were the sweepee).

This is what I was hinting at when I asked about the chamber flag.

Chamber flags are designed/intended to go into the chamber. When used as intended they indicate an empty chamber, and a round can't be chambered when one is correctly inserted. They can do a good job of this, but there are issues with chamber flags (or their implementation). Often, they're not used as intended - they're inserted between the bolt and the receiver and extend into the mag well (or out the SG loading port). When used like this, they don't function as intended - they don't function as "chamber flags". Instead, they function like a "bolt out of battery device". A bolt out of battery device doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We frequently see a torn piece of SG ammo packaging used for this purpose. Again, this doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We also see chamber flags that have been modified so that they don't go into a chamber (again, functioning as a bolt out of battery device, and not an indicator of a clear chamber). Incorrect use of chamber flags is often due to a competitor's reluctance to put a piece of plastic (typically) into a hot (very hot?) chamber in fear that it may melt and leave residue that compromises firearm function/reliability.

Additionally (and per your earlier question), there isn't any USPSA MG rule book requirement for rifle/SG being transported from stage to stage in a bag/case (which was the situation in the OP) to have a chamber flag. So to answer your earlier question, no, at least two of the instances in the OP didn't have a chamber flag.

At the local matches I've been to, all rifles have to have a chamber flag when not being used. After the rifle and/or shotgun is cleared at the end of a stage, the chamber flag is supposed to be inserted and the bolt lowered. Failure to do so is supposed to result in a match DQ.

This sounds like it may work well for your local match. What you describe isn't supported by current USPSA MG rules.

I still wouldn't want a gun pointed at me, even if it had a correctly used chamber flag in it. Maybe I'm sensitive that way.

[jrswanson1]

If we deemed a chamber flag to be the equivalent of a holster, then we would presumably treat flagged long guns the same as holstered handguns - they would be considered to be "inert". We don't DQ people for bending over to tie their shoelace with a holstered handgun on their belt, and so sweeping someone with a flagged long gun would arguably be exactly the same situation (uncomfortable as we might all feel if we were the sweepee).

This is what I was hinting at when I asked about the chamber flag.

Chamber flags are designed/intended to go into the chamber. When used as intended they indicate an empty chamber, and a round can't be chambered when one is correctly inserted. They can do a good job of this, but there are issues with chamber flags (or their implementation). Often, they're not used as intended - they're inserted between the bolt and the receiver and extend into the mag well (or out the SG loading port). When used like this, they don't function as intended - they don't function as "chamber flags". Instead, they function like a "bolt out of battery device". A bolt out of battery device doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We frequently see a torn piece of SG ammo packaging used for this purpose. Again, this doesn't indicate a clear chamber. We also see chamber flags that have been modified so that they don't go into a chamber (again, functioning as a bolt out of battery device, and not an indicator of a clear chamber). Incorrect use of chamber flags is often due to a competitor's reluctance to put a piece of plastic (typically) into a hot (very hot?) chamber in fear that it may melt and leave residue that compromises firearm function/reliability.

Additionally (and per your earlier question), there isn't any USPSA MG rule book requirement for rifle/SG being transported from stage to stage in a bag/case (which was the situation in the OP) to have a chamber flag. So to answer your earlier question, no, at least two of the instances in the OP didn't have a chamber flag.

At the local matches I've been to, all rifles have to have a chamber flag when not being used. After the rifle and/or shotgun is cleared at the end of a stage, the chamber flag is supposed to be inserted and the bolt lowered. Failure to do so is supposed to result in a match DQ.

This sounds like it may work well for your local match. What you describe isn't supported by current USPSA MG rules.

I still wouldn't want a gun pointed at me, even if it had a correctly used chamber flag in it. Maybe I'm sensitive that way.

I don't want firearms pointed at me, either. Just pointing out rules.

[outerlimits]

This issue certainly needs attention in USPSA MG Rules. Under IMA rules, there is a "catch all" provision that would give the RM teeth:

2.4.7 Pointing a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in any direction deemed by Event Officials to be unsafe.

With this said, we (USPSA) need to reach consensus on how we regard a long gun with a chamber flag installed.

If we deemed a chamber flag to be the equivalent of a holster, then we would presumably treat flagged long guns the same as holstered handguns - they would be considered to be "inert". We don't DQ people for bending over to tie their shoelace with a holstered handgun on their belt, and so sweeping someone with a flagged long gun would arguably be exactly the same situation (uncomfortable as we might all feel if we were the sweepee).

If we deem a chamber flag to be something less than a holster, then I can see a rationale for adding more restrictions on gun handling.

I personally would like to encourage the highest standards of gun handling by having a rule mandating that all bagging/unbagging be done pointing into a berm or other designated safe direction. However, we should NOT mandate that this be done only in a traditional Safety Area, because Safety Area real estate is often in short supply, and because competitors often handle ammo at the same time (e.g. inserting a shotshell in a sidesaddle, grabbing a rifle mag etc.)

Maybe so, but IMA rules need to be updated to cover slung guns. Aside from that, (which was covered in the WSB) stage 7 at this year's superstition allowed shooters to sling anywhere they wanted. Our squad got swept by the squad in front of us repeatedly. I'm sure we swept each other as well. That needs to be thought out.

[MarkCO]

USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed.

The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not.

[jrswanson1]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218179

[fishsticks]

Not to drift too far from the topic at hand -

IMHO, we're our own worst enemy here. The "big boy rules" mindset and rapid growth of 3Gun has led us here. Formal rule set notwithstanding however, we should all be following the 4 rules of gun safety. It isn't that hard to bag/unbag, transport, store etc a long gun at a 3 gun match (or anywhere for that matter) without sweeping everyone.

In some ways USPSA Handgun has gone too far, but I understand why. See the recent example discussed on this forum of a DQ for bagging near, but not in the "box" of a safety area. Obviously I wasn't there, but had I been there as an RO I'd have DQ'd them too. But - assuming the individual was facing into the berm etc, their action wasn't "unsafe", nor did it violate any of the 4 gun safety rules. It was however a DQ offense under the current hand gun rules.

Somewhere between these two extremes is best in my opinion.

[MarkCO]

Not to drift too far from the topic at hand -

IMHO, we're our own worst enemy here. The "big boy rules" mindset and rapid growth of 3Gun has led us here. Formal rule set notwithstanding however, we should all be following the 4 rules of gun safety. It isn't that hard to bag/unbag, transport, store etc a long gun at a 3 gun match (or anywhere for that matter) without sweeping everyone.

In some ways USPSA Handgun has gone too far, but I understand why. See the recent example discussed on this forum of a DQ for bagging near, but not in the "box" of a safety area. Obviously I wasn't there, but had I been there as an RO I'd have DQ'd them too. But - assuming the individual was facing into the berm etc, their action wasn't "unsafe", nor did it violate any of the 4 gun safety rules. It was however a DQ offense under the current hand gun rules.

Somewhere between these two extremes is best in my opinion.

Agreed. The difficulty comes from having two people who were there saying different things about what actually occurred. The best path is to approach the problem as if both set of circumstances are correct and then looking at the rulebook with a end to making sure the rules are appropriate and do not violate the 4 laws of gun safety.

[ac4wordplay]

USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed.

The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not.

Mark,

Thanks for contributing this. For clarification, do you mean to reference USPSA MG 1.1.1? Or something else? 1.1 is just the heading for General Principles, and 1.1.1 seems a bit vague.

If you feel comfortable PMing me I'd be interested in more info on your interaction with DNROI on this matter. I understand if you choose not to share that info.

Best,

ac

[ac4wordplay]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218179

I haven't read the entire thread. It seems to address slings and using a slung rifle. Not exactly what this thread is about. Is there info relevant to this thread that's contained in your linked thread?

Thanks,

ac

[ac4wordplay]

USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed.

The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not.

Were said violators using chamber flags?

Flag or no flag, I would call it unsafe gun handling and I wouldn't work a match with that RM again.

It now looks like there are at least three RMI that you would refuse to work a match for. I understand your position.

[jrswanson1]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218179

I haven't read the entire thread. It seems to address slings and using a slung rifle. Not exactly what this thread is about. Is there info relevant to this thread that's contained in your linked thread?

Thanks,

ac

Person in video is breaking the 180, I'm being told by other members of the forum on that thread that it's not a problem.

[ac4wordplay]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218179

I haven't read the entire thread. It seems to address slings and using a slung rifle. Not exactly what this thread is about. Is there info relevant to this thread that's contained in your linked thread?

Thanks,

ac

Person in video is breaking the 180, I'm being told by other members of the forum on that thread that it's not a problem.

The FB video. It seems that wasn't a USPSA match, so it may be of limited use in this thread. I don't do FB (so I didn't see that video), but as usual, EricM and KurtM had excellent and insightful posts.

[MarkCO]

USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed.

The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not.

Mark,

Thanks for contributing this. For clarification, do you mean to reference USPSA MG 1.1.1? Or something else? 1.1 is just the heading for General Principles, and 1.1.1 seems a bit vague.

If you feel comfortable PMing me I'd be interested in more info on your interaction with DNROI on this matter. I understand if you choose not to share that info.

Best,

ac

1.1.1 Safety – USPSA matches must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

While I do not agree with Troy at all times, I have a good communication record with him, and it is ongoing at this point as well, so I do not think providing a full detailing of those email exchanges is beneficial and may be detrimental.

[MarkCO]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218179

I haven't read the entire thread. It seems to address slings and using a slung rifle. Not exactly what this thread is about. Is there info relevant to this thread that's contained in your linked thread?

Thanks,

ac

Person in video is breaking the 180, I'm being told by other members of the forum on that thread that it's not a problem.

There is a difference between a 180 break and sweeping someone.

[bikerburgess]

Slight Drift

I have yet to figure out why we work so hard to make dump devices that safely hold long guns muzzle down pointed at the ground for safety but everyone seems to have some weird need to point their guns up whenever they remove them from bags or dump barrels. if you take your rifle out of the bag muzzle down to go to the line it is very hard to sweep anyone with it, same thing with shotguns to the preload table.

I have seen many competitors get swept by RO's because they were a little zealous getting down range to reset while the RO is clearing an abandoned firearm and going muzzle up with it from the bump location, oddly most long guns are easy to clear without ever moving the muzzle from the bottom of the dump bucket, and can all be moved muzzle down so nobody gets swept.

[mactiger]

I emailed MarkCO and explained that I was under the impression he was addressing a different problem at the MG Nationals. My mistake. I'm currently working the Area 6 championship and didn't look at the link he sent immediately.

Neither the current nor the proposed USPSA MG rules address this situation directly or adequately, but that will be remedied. I'll work with Mike Pinto, the MG Rules committee chair, the board, and the instructors to come up with a rule that will cover both handling requirements and the penalties associated with not following those requirements.

[MarkCO]

Thanks Troy.

[ChuckS]

I emailed MarkCO and explained that I was under the impression he was addressing a different problem at the MG Nationals. My mistake. I'm currently working the Area 6 championship and didn't look at the link he sent immediately.

Neither the current nor the proposed USPSA MG rules address this situation directly or adequately, but that will be remedied. I'll work with Mike Pinto, the MG Rules committee chair, the board, and the instructors to come up with a rule that will cover both handling requirements and the penalties associated with not following those requirements.

I am pretty sure we will need this to spill over into PCC....

[ac4wordplay]

I emailed MarkCO and explained that I was under the impression he was addressing a different problem at the MG Nationals. My mistake. I'm currently working the Area 6 championship and didn't look at the link he sent immediately.

Neither the current nor the proposed USPSA MG rules address this situation directly or adequately, but that will be remedied. I'll work with Mike Pinto, the MG Rules committee chair, the board, and the instructors to come up with a rule that will cover both handling requirements and the penalties associated with not following those requirements.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

I'm still confused as to how the issue wasn't sufficiently covered by 10.5 and it's language "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to [emphasis added]:" That seems to address the issue, but several RMI seem to disagree with me (I'd love a valid explanation - for educational purposes).

Edited April 22, 2016 by ac4wordplay

[Stevec717]

Ok, not to hijack this thread, but I do have a question that touches on these issues....

I'm starting 3 gun and looking into a cart/wagon. Most carts have gun racks to hold the rifle and shotgun muzzle down (chamber flags inserted) stage to stage. Some people are using fled up wagons. They seems handy too. But the mounts are typically put on the top rails carrying the long guns horizontally. So as the wagon is pulled about the guns are sweeping anyone in front of, or behind the wagon.

If they are flagged, is this considered safe? Is it the gun sweeping the issue, or a gun in someone hands sweeping the issue?

Just wondering if there's an opinion out there on these two methods of transport and whether you all would feel better with long guns toted muzzles down.

[teros135]

Muzzle down. Absolutely.

[Neomet]

Thanks for addressing this. I will never, never, never be okay with somebody pointing any firearm at me. Chamber flag, no chamber flag, slung, unslinging, uncasing, climbing a ladder, RO saw that loaded mag inserted but round not chambered........

No. Hell no.