USPSA MultiGun rules

[teros135]

I hope our discussions here will be considered for PCC. Rifles are rifles.

[MarkCO]

I hope our discussions here will be considered for PCC. Rifles are rifles.

I'd say just apply to any firearm not in a holster. Email your AD and let them know your thoughts. Based on Troy's last email to me, I think there will be adjustments in all the rulesets for long guns.

[ac4wordplay]

I hope our discussions here will be considered for PCC. Rifles are rifles.

I'd say just apply to any firearm not in a holster. Email your AD and let them know your thoughts. Based on Troy's last email to me, I think there will be adjustments in all the rulesets for long guns.

I don't see how adjustments to long gun rules were necessary to address the OP issue at that time. Mark, why do you think 10.5 and its language "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to [emphasis added]:" is insufficient? 10.5.1 should also be sufficient - the events in the OP didn't occur inside a safety area, didn't occur in an area deemed safe by a range officer, and the handling didn't occur under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command by a range officer.

Seems pretty clear and straightforward to me - 10.5 and 10.5.1 are in the book... but they weren't applied on the range. Why not? And RMIs are still saying the OP events weren't unsafe gun handling, and weren't a violation of any USPSA MG rules. What high-level RMI knowledge explains this?

Respectfully,

ac

[ac4wordplay]

Almost every range that I'm familiar with (which is an admittedly limited number) prohibits pointing a firearm at a person. They recognize it as a violation of one of the four universal rules of safe firearms handling. I wonder if the properties that host USPSA MG matches know/understand the USPSA/NROI position that allows rifles/shotguns to be pointed at people, that USPSA/NROI doesn't consider it unsafe gun handling, and doesn't consider it a violation of USPSA MG rules. If host properties knew this, I wonder if USPSA MG matches would still be welcome there.

[MarkCO]

I hope our discussions here will be considered for PCC. Rifles are rifles.

I'd say just apply to any firearm not in a holster. Email your AD and let them know your thoughts. Based on Troy's last email to me, I think there will be adjustments in all the rulesets for long guns.

I don't see how adjustments to long gun rules were necessary to address the OP issue at that time. Mark, why do you think 10.5 and its language "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to [emphasis added]:" is insufficient? 10.5.1 should also be sufficient - the events in the OP didn't occur inside a safety area, didn't occur in an area deemed safe by a range officer, and the handling didn't occur under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command by a range officer.

Seems pretty clear and straightforward to me - 10.5 and 10.5.1 are in the book... but they weren't applied on the range. Why not? And RMIs are still saying the OP events weren't unsafe gun handling, and weren't a violation of any USPSA MG rules. What high-level RMI knowledge explains this?

Respectfully,

ac

I do not think it is insufficient and I would have handled it differently. I think the ruleset is clear and that 10.5 can be used, and should have been used and I do think the precedent set is wrong as well. The RM in the specific case did not. I will leave it at that.

[ac4wordplay]

There seems to be a noticeable lack of commentary here from some members who are usually quite active/vocal. Interesting.

This is also on the USPSA forum (http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), where other threads have received quite a bit of participation from the President and AD1, both of whom have been contacted and received a link to this thread. Things are (surprisingly?) silent over there on this topic. Where's the love? (Maybe I need to weave in some relevance to PCC or CO to get some attention...)

This issue seems significant enough - on several levels - that one may expect it to warrant discussion/participation. Several important and valid questions have been asked, but no valid answers have been received. There seems to be a sharp contrast between the RMI position that pointing guns at people isn't unsafe gun handling or a rule violation, and the membership/competitor position that pointing guns at people is unacceptable. What's up with that?

Edited April 24, 2016 by ac4wordplay

[Nik Habicht]

I'm silent on it largely because my 3 gun experience was limited to outlaw matches.

The shooter briefing at those basically boiled down to: We're not going to tell you how to transport long guns around the range, but we expect you to make sure the muzzle never covers other persons. Oddly that policy worked pretty well......

[ac4wordplay]

I'm silent on it largely because my 3 gun experience was limited to outlaw matches.

The shooter briefing at those basically boiled down to: We're not going to tell you how to transport long guns around the range, but we expect you to make sure the muzzle never covers other persons. Oddly that policy worked pretty well......

Thanks for participating Nik.

Your experience with MG may be limited to outlaw matches, but I think your experience with USPSA, USPSA rule books, and MD and RM duties would allow you to form an opinion.

In the outlaw MG matches you were involved with, what was the result when/if a firearm was pointed at a staff member or competitor or observer?

[Gooldylocks]

The whole conversation here seems ridiculous. I've never once shot a multi gun match, but pointing guns at people is fundamentally against the rules of safe gun handling. How is there even a question here? DQ by 10.5, no questions asked. I think that having an unbagging area like Mike mentioned is a good step to help ensure it doesn't happen, but if it does then you are done.

The entire question is silly to me. I think that "slung guns are sticks" is dumb too though, so maybe I'm biased?

[Nik Habicht]

I'm silent on it largely because my 3 gun experience was limited to outlaw matches.

The shooter briefing at those basically boiled down to: We're not going to tell you how to transport long guns around the range, but we expect you to make sure the muzzle never covers other persons. Oddly that policy worked pretty well......

Thanks for participating Nik.

Your experience with MG may be limited to outlaw matches, but I think your experience with USPSA, USPSA rule books, and MD and RM duties would allow you to form an opinion.

In the outlaw MG matches you were involved with, what was the result when/if a firearm was pointed at a staff member or competitor or observer?

I haven't read the USPSA MG or separate rifle/shotgun rule books in a number of years -- so I'd want to start there to see if the rules support a match DQ. I'm not opposed to invoking the language from 10.5 if that's my only option -- but I don't know off the top of my head if the situation is addressed somewhere else in those rulebooks with a rule that prevents us from using 10.5 for this situation.

I also wasn't at the match, haven't had the chance to interview the participants, so I'm not going to suggest that an RM or RMI made a bad call -- I simply don't have the information to support that.

That said -- if this situation isn't addressed by the rules, I'm probably not going to run, officiate at, or participate in a USPSA MG match. Guns shouldn't ever be pointed at anything one isn't willing to destroy. That's pretty basic. I transport my handguns in triangular range rugs so I know where the muzzle is pointing at any time -- maybe that's just me but I think it's the competitor's responsibility to ensure that their muzzle does not ever cover another person on the range.

If this is a gap in the ruleset, it sounds like it's going to get some attention in the near future. That's a good thing in my mind.

[bishop414]

First off I never want to see a gun pointed my way.

In regards to MG Nats I asked our first stage CRO about un-bagging long guns. Was told as long as a chamber flag is in place prior to gun coming out, good to go. So, that means un-bagging in the parking lot was allowed and I did so. I did keep muzzle awareness but how do you know the car facing mine was empty?

The CRO is very experienced in USPSA and it appeared this had been discussed among the staff and RM/MD approved. (My opinion)

Based on this, not sure 10.5 would hold up.

I agree the rules need to be adjusted. Multiple un-bagging areas facing berms would be ideal. I'm against a "safety area" because it is common to lay your magazine or shotshell on your gun so you're ready to go.

Just my 2 cents.

[teros135]

"Common" doesn't make it right. We might like to lay our mags out on the safety table or handle them to check them out, but we can't, don't, and don't need to. Why would MG people be different?

[fishsticks]

"Common" doesn't make it right. We might like to lay our mags out on the safety table or handle them to check them out, but we can't, don't, and don't need to. Why would MG people be different?

Because they are dealing with 3 guns and trying to maintain relatively short stage clearance times. So staging equipment becomes one way to do that. Then, the question is how to do it safely.

One way that is done is with a staging area. Competitors bag/unbag, preload shotguns etc. it isn't a safe area, but allows unsupervised handling of firearms.

[Gary Stevens]

"Common" doesn't make it right. We might like to lay our mags out on the safety table or handle them to check them out, but we can't, don't, and don't need to. Why would MG people be different?

Well leave the ammo out of them and you can fondle to your hearts content:)

[teros135]

That's the point.

[bishop414]

Like Fishsticks said, shooter turn times are tight as it is. Last thing you need is someone running back to a bag, car etc. because they forgot 1 item in a magnitude of items needed to complete a stage.

It was common at MG Nats to have your rifle and mag laying on your bag or table, you went down range with pistol and shotgun and after make ready another RO brought you your rifle and ammo. If that was a safe area, you can't stage ammo, check your mags and make sure they are loaded, re-arrange gear etc.

As I stated, guns pointed at people with or without flags is bad.

A staging area, un-bagging, get your Sh*t together area would work.

Another topic that has been discussed at our matches, what about un-holstering your pistol in so called staging area? Why is it safe to un-bag a long gun, but not a pistol says competitor? So I have to use a safety area for pistols but can handle long guns any where?

[fishsticks]

What's been done at bigger matches I've been to (3GN Regional and NW Multigun) is to have both a safe area and a preload area. The big difference is ammo is ok in the preload. Mostly these were designated and delineated areas. More so for the safety area.

I agree 100% that pointing guns at people unloaded or not isn't ok.

The separate safety and staging concept worked fine, and I personally did not see folks bagging and unbagging in an unsafe manner.

[Nik Habicht]

So here's my take: If you need a pre-load area, I'm guessing it's for shotgun, as it can take a few seconds to load the tube. If so, that needs to be an area separate from a safe table, and that area needs to be supervised at all times by an RO -- because we're a lot closer to having someone handle a loaded gun. Competitors can use the area to preload under RO supervision -- ideally one competitor at a time, say the guy who's on deck or in the hole. After that it's no touchy, until an RO tells a competitor it's ok to pick up his shotgun.

Rifle and pistol staging with mags -- really? I've never needed to do that -- and I've shot 3 gun with half a dozen ten round mags due to state laws. With 30 rounders or above, it's just not that hard to stuff the starting mag in your back pocket -- unless it's a beta-mag......

[bret]

I would issue DQs for those offenses. Slinging and unslinging on the clock...yes it does happen, and I do not like it at all, BUT, an RO has independently checked to ensure the rifle is clear. In the case of the OP, a gun out of the bag has not been checked by an RO.

The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported.

Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.

The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd.

Who was the RM?

[ac4wordplay]

I would issue DQs for those offenses. Slinging and unslinging on the clock...yes it does happen, and I do not like it at all, BUT, an RO has independently checked to ensure the rifle is clear. In the case of the OP, a gun out of the bag has not been checked by an RO.

The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported.

Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.

The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd.

Who was the RM?

Brett,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues.

Respectfully,

ac

[Gooldylocks]

I would issue DQs for those offenses. Slinging and unslinging on the clock...yes it does happen, and I do not like it at all, BUT, an RO has independently checked to ensure the rifle is clear. In the case of the OP, a gun out of the bag has not been checked by an RO.

The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported.

Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.

The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd.

Who was the RM?

Boom. Call it what it is.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[bret]

I would issue DQs for those offenses. Slinging and unslinging on the clock...yes it does happen, and I do not like it at all, BUT, an RO has independently checked to ensure the rifle is clear. In the case of the OP, a gun out of the bag has not been checked by an RO.

The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported.

Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.

The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd.

Who was the RM?

Brett,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues.

Respectfully,

ac

Range Officers need to know who the RM is that says it's OK to point guns at R.O.'s.

[ac4wordplay]

I would issue DQs for those offenses. Slinging and unslinging on the clock...yes it does happen, and I do not like it at all, BUT, an RO has independently checked to ensure the rifle is clear. In the case of the OP, a gun out of the bag has not been checked by an RO.

The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported.

Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.

The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd.

Who was the RM?

Brett,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues.

Respectfully,

ac

Range Officers need to know who the RM is that says it's OK to point guns at R.O.'s.

Brett,

That's an excellent point, and I support your reason for wanting a name.

I'm not sure how to deal with that. Someone will probably tell you, but I don't plan to identify anybody in this thread.

If you've read this thread closely and with your stated concern in mind, then you've paid attention to posts by a couple of RMI and the positions that they've taken. You may find that information useful.

Respectfully,

ac

[bret]

This issue certainly needs attention in USPSA MG Rules. Under IMA rules, there is a "catch all" provision that would give the RM teeth:

2.4.7 Pointing a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in any direction deemed by Event Officials to be unsafe.

With this said, we (USPSA) need to reach consensus on how we regard a long gun with a chamber flag installed.

If we deemed a chamber flag to be the equivalent of a holster, then we would presumably treat flagged long guns the same as holstered handguns - they would be considered to be "inert". We don't DQ people for bending over to tie their shoelace with a holstered handgun on their belt, and so sweeping someone with a flagged long gun would arguably be exactly the same situation (uncomfortable as we might all feel if we were the sweepee).

If we deem a chamber flag to be something less than a holster, then I can see a rationale for adding more restrictions on gun handling.

I personally would like to encourage the highest standards of gun handling by having a rule mandating that all bagging/unbagging be done pointing into a berm or other designated safe direction. However, we should NOT mandate that this be done only in a traditional Safety Area, because Safety Area real estate is often in short supply, and because competitors often handle ammo at the same time (e.g. inserting a shotshell in a sidesaddle, grabbing a rifle mag etc.)

Bending over to tie your shoes with a holstered handgun is completely different than point a rifle or shotgun at someone.

The handgun is holstered, no access to the trigger, it is not in the person hands.

A rifle or shotgun being uncased and pointed at someone has access to the trigger and is being handled by the person.

A bagged or cased gun is about the same as a holstered handgun IMO.

I am pretty shocked and disappointed an RMI didn't back his R.O. and said it's OK to point a gun at his R.O.

If I was working the match and that happened I would not stick around.

[Religious Shooter]

A bagged or cased gun is about the same as a holstered handgun IMO.

How about a flagged rifle? You know rod inside the chamber. Out of battery. What is that in your opinion?