USPSA MultiGun rules

[MarkCO]

The problem with chamber flags is people modify them to keep the chambers empty, and some do not even go in the chamber.

The 4 laws were written for a reason and I believe their erosion is unwarranted. NDs, have been rolled back, safety off has been rolled back, and the number of DQs had risen, even more in other organizations who have rolled back more. I do believe it is time to say no more before a tragedy occurs.

Thing that bothers me is that my guess would be if the DQ was issued by the RM, it would have been upheld and we would not be having this conversation.

[bret]

A bagged or cased gun is about the same as a holstered handgun IMO.

How about a flagged rifle? You know rod inside the chamber. Out of battery. What is that in your opinion?

All flags are not the same and I do not consider a flagged rifle or shotgun the same as bagged or cased.

No one should ever have any muzzle pointed at them, even flagged.

At Area 6 multigun, a guy used the flap from a box of shotgun shells, other guys use zip ties, weed eater line or none at all. I have seen guys with uncased shotguns and rifles with the bolt closed.

Have been in matches where my shotgun was cleared by the R.O. and it still had shells in the tube.

[teros135]

...and a gun with rounds in it is a loaded gun.

There are too many variables in gun handling (and especially MG) to allow a "cascade of errors" to start by dropping out any of the standard rules. Flagged doesn't mean empty, empty doesn't mean you can point it at someone, etc.

[BritinUSA]

Besides the whole pointing guns at people thing, which should be an automatic DQ in ANY scenario;

Why doesn't USPSA have a rule about chamber flags? ie. That they be designed exclusively for that purpose (so you can't use anything not designed as a chamber flag such as zip ties etc.), and that they met be inserted INTO the chamber, not just the action, and that coming to the line with a rifle/shotgun/carbine without said chamber flag would be a DQ?

If not correctly addressed this matter will only get worse once PCC is installed, as there are many RO's that don't often officiate with long guns and don't have the same amount of experience with them.

[MarkCO]

Shoot a few long gun matches and you too will come to despise chamber flags.

[bishop414]

+1 Mark.

[Jadeslade]

The best matches have enough personnel and space to have a supervising RO and a table for putting shotguns and rifles on and preloading the shotgun, this is also often where chokes are changed also. Chamber flags are ok, but as some have already suggested, they are often just to hold the bolt open. A lot of new people are shooting 3 Gun Matches without having practiced, researched, and developed the skills necessary for handling 3 guns safely. We need not just rules, but maybe a Code of Conduct essay that must be read and signed before shooting the match or certification for appearing in a USPSA 3 Gun Match. In reality, if you train and are good, you could go across a disco dance floor with 3 loaded guns, hot, and never muzzle anyone. Muzzling the RO from a few feet away is definitely toward the retard level. I see goofy stuff a lot and like a lot of people have already said. muzzling is never ok. Period. I will say a lot of the problem is due to poor layout, too many people in a cramped space, lack of tables and generally matches trying to do too much without adequate manpower.

[BritinUSA]

The best matches have enough personnel and space to have a supervising RO and a table for putting shotguns and rifles on ..

I doubt that this will be the case when PCC is part of our local handgun matches. There needs to be a repeatable/enforceable solution soon.

[Jadeslade]

One gun is easy. Safety table there, just like for pistol, Chamber flag, bolt open, muzzle down, or up if holding in hand and no breaking the handgun rules. Mulltigun is where the problem lies. I carry my PCC slung in front muzzle down on a sling like your checking ID at a checkpoint. Jeff Cooper's 4 rules pretty much cover it.

[mike_pinto]

Why doesn't USPSA have a rule about chamber flags? ie. That they be designed exclusively for that purpose (so you can't use anything not designed as a chamber flag such as zip ties etc.), and that they met be inserted INTO the chamber, not just the action, and that coming to the line with a rifle/shotgun/carbine without said chamber flag would be a DQ?

So would the Chamberview devices be illegal in this scenario as they do not insert INTO the chamber? Not being a smartass, but I keep hearing this argument, and although I agree that it should be a proper chamber device, I am having a hard time defining it.. Also, does anyone else worry about putting something plastic into their chamber after a good 40 round hoser rifle stage? That chamber is pretty darn hot at that point.. I am just trying to recommend an all encompassing solution for the ruleset, and you all are the greatest resources for the thought process..

[outerlimits]

Why doesn't USPSA have a rule about chamber flags? ie. That they be designed exclusively for that purpose (so you can't use anything not designed as a chamber flag such as zip ties etc.), and that they met be inserted INTO the chamber, not just the action, and that coming to the line with a rifle/shotgun/carbine without said chamber flag would be a DQ?

So would the Chamberview devices be illegal in this scenario as they do not insert INTO the chamber? Not being a smartass, but I keep hearing this argument, and although I agree that it should be a proper chamber device, I am having a hard time defining it.. Also, does anyone else worry about putting something plastic into their chamber after a good 40 round hoser rifle stage? That chamber is pretty darn hot at that point.. I am just trying to recommend an all encompassing solution for the ruleset, and you all are the greatest resources for the thought process..

mike-excellent point. no way i'm shoving something plastic into a hot $700 JP chamber. i used arredondo's ar flag, it only locks open the bolt, it does not enter the chamber. i have yet to se an AR fire from an open bolt, like Macs do.

[2MoreChains]

Slight thread drift: if whatever DNROI comes up with migrates over to PCC, I like the idea of designating a table or section of the bay that faces into a side berm as the designated unbagging and bagging area. It wouldn't need much, just somebody to point and say "all yous over-der". Everyone with a long gun lines up their bags/case/kart with the muzzle pointing into the berm. I don't even need a table, just a patch of dirt up against a side berm. 3-gun match where everybody has 2 long guns may need more room, but PCC at a USPSA match... probably won't need much room.

On deck shooter faces berm and unbags gun at that location, verticalizes the gun (just made up a new word), and walks up to the start position.

At the end of the stage after Range is Clear, carries verticalized gun back to the bagging area and stows it in the bag, case, kart.

The local 3 gun matches I've shot do it this way and have not seen a problem like the OP describes -and I am kind of sensitive to muzzles being pointed at me as well.

Edited April 27, 2016 by 2MoreChains

[ac4wordplay]

On the USPSA forum (same OP, here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), DNROI commented on the issue in the OP, and stated:

"Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to transport and handle, but muzzle direction upon bagging/unbagging is not directly addressed [by the present USPSA MG rules]."

That comment prompted a few more thoughts and questions.

• The (present) February 2014 USPSA Multigun rule book (http://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2015/RifleShotgunMultigunRules.pdf) covers transportation under 5.2.3 (and there are some requirements and restrictions), but I can't find a rule that states that " Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to [...] handle" - where is this found? This ("safe to [...] handle") includes pointing the gun at staff/competitors/spectators?

• The (present) February 2014 USPSA Multigun rule book covers casing and uncasing under 2.5.2.1. As it's a sub-section of 2.5.2, and is explicitly permitted at a safety area, it logically follows that it's not permitted outside of a safety area. 2.5.2 includes a requirement that the "firearm is pointed in a safe direction", and states that "violations are subject to match disqualification". Why would handling at a safety area require that the "firearm is pointed in a safe direction", if handling outside the safety area allows firearms to be pointed at people?

Edited May 20, 2016 by ac4wordplay