killflash Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Hey guys, I did a training session yesterday doing Bill Drills and noticed that my 2nd-6th rounds were consistently going all over the place. Majority were going high, and some going low due to over compensating. I believe that me trying to keep a par time of sub 2s was a big factor. I would much appreciate any help to improve. Thanks, Mark youtube.com/watch?v=mhDDGSXPSug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Without watching the video, I'm guessing your grip needs work (check the thread on recoil control) and don't use a par time. Shoot as fast as you can see the sights, and when you are hitting all alphas, push a little faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killflash Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 Without watching the video, I'm guessing your grip needs work (check the thread on recoil control) and don't use a par time. Shoot as fast as you can see the sights, and when you are hitting all alphas, push a little faster. Thanks, for the right direction Jake. Now I will say, that the first 10 Bill Drills were in the A Zone with the occasional C & D zones. It was the last 120 rounds, that I noticed the issue. Could it be due to fatigue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 I'm just a B class shooter, but I'll tell u what helped me. Forget time for now. Start at 5 yds, with a target focus, and look for holes in the target. Take 300 rds to the range and do it over and over. Your brain will push the shots to the center. Look over the sights. You will start to feel the gun and not break the shot before you should. Keep picking up the pace as long as u are walking the shots back to center. This is not a technique. It's just an eye opener, and will relax things, and prevents pushing too much. It's hard to explain. You just have to try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killflash Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 I'm just a B class shooter, but I'll tell u what helped me. Forget time for now. Start at 5 yds, with a target focus, and look for holes in the target. Take 300 rds to the range and do it over and over. Your brain will push the shots to the center. Look over the sights. You will start to feel the gun and not break the shot before you should. Keep picking up the pace as long as u are walking the shots back to center. This is not a technique. It's just an eye opener, and will relax things, and prevents pushing too much. It's hard to explain. You just have to try it. Thanks for the quick response JD45, Another question is, would you suggest a couple rounds for warm up or jump right in with a slow focused Bill Drill and work my way up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 If you can't see from the sights where all the shots are going, you are doing it wrong. The most important skill you can learn imho is to call your shots from the sight picture. Then you will know exactly when and why your shots are going all over the place, and you will notice that when you grip better, you don't have to wait as long to shoot an alpha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 I think it might be your approach. The Bill Drill is not the end result, it is the means to get there. You should be seeing more, adjusting grip/stance/trigger and the end result is to shoot A's faster and more accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 To answer your last question, I think you can do whatever you like. But Brian's advice on shooting a group slow fire before you start practicing is good advice. Try the drill. Then go back and shoot with a front sight focus another day. Then, try a target focus later. A bill drill will teach you a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I'm working on consistently getting that first shot in the A zone. Once the gun is locked into my grip and I'm 2 shots into the string of 6, things stay pretty tight. It's that small time window where I'm coming off the draw and getting the initial sight picture and solidifying the grip where things sometimes go less than optimally. So a mini drill is to draw and put one or two shots in the A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Are you presenting the gun on the target then rowing your finger as fast as it can go? Or observing the sights and breaking the shot as soon as you see an acceptable sight picture? If you are performing the first example then you are doing the drill incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 If, for every shot, you are not seeing ("tracking") the front sight as it is coming back down into the rear notch - you are not seeing what you need to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjdaniel78 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Are you presenting the gun on the target then rowing your finger as fast as it can go? Or observing the sights and breaking the shot as soon as you see an acceptable sight picture? If you are performing the first example then you are doing the drill incorrectly. THIS! I wasted a lot of ammo doing it wrong. Ironically I actually "figured it out" while running a Bill Drill with my CCW, which is a S&W Shield topped with a Trijicon HD front sight. Once I realized what I needed to see I became giddy all over and ran 5 more sets, each time seeing what I needed to see. The next range trip I brought 200 rounds, my Production gear and only shot Bill Drills. The first run out of the gate I ran a 2.21 with all A's compared to my previous best of 2.01, with at least two C's each time. 20 runs in (120 rounds) I was back to 2.0X with all A's AND I was seeing the sights. As a result my shooting has improved, with each and every handgun I own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 If I had never finally achieved much greater containment of muzzle flip, keeping the sights more in alignment or at least returning to alignment very quickly, I never would have been able to pick up the pace and credibly claim I'm seeing sight alignment for each shot. The eyes and the grip and the trigger finger have to be doing the right things, together. The brain is plenty powerful enough to sort it out if given the opportunity via sufficient runs, if having an understanding of what needs to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJquinn Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Its three simple things. GRIP, GRIP and GRIP. Start closer that 21 feet. Grip 3 times harder than you think you should. Adjust from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killflash Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 Thank You all for the great advice. I Decided to shoot my first USPSA Match, and felt really good. I kept the mentality to only pull the trigger when the sight picture was acceptable. Overall had a BLAST! youtube.com/watch?v=cjLGTHQSW50&feature=youtu.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungfurabbit Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 Wow.. Now I'm even more nervous for my first match. Looked fun though. I know I'll be slower, but speed comes with time right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 Speed comes from practicing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungfurabbit Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 Well right, time spent practicing speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJART Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 If you can't see from the sights where all the shots are going, you are doing it wrong. The most important skill you can learn imho is to call your shots from the sight picture. Then you will know exactly when and why your shots are going all over the place, and you will notice that when you grip better, you don't have to wait as long to shoot an alpha. Interesting perspective. I got to B class spraying and praying. I'm dead serious. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 If you can't see from the sights where all the shots are going, you are doing it wrong. The most important skill you can learn imho is to call your shots from the sight picture. Then you will know exactly when and why your shots are going all over the place, and you will notice that when you grip better, you don't have to wait as long to shoot an alpha. Interesting perspective. I got to B class spraying and praying. I'm dead serious. Lol Of course. So did I. I was talking about actually getting good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killflash Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 UPDATE!!!! I took a mixture of everyone's advice and dry fired my hands off. I'm now allowing the sights to settle before I fire a round off. Thank you again everyone for giving awesome advice. Here is a video of my progress doing a Bill Drill with my Beretta M92A1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Grip looks much more solid, although it's hard to compare exactly - this video is fullspeed and the first one was slow-mo. Two little things that may help: Stance: Pause the video in the middle, around rounds #2 through 4. Look at your stance. You're almost totally upright, weight centered on your feet. Draw: Watch how quickly your hands move to the grip and then from the holster to the target. Now go watch these two items carefully on youtube with videos of Max Michel, Eric Grauffel, Nils Jonasson, Bob Vogel, Ben Stoeger... With regard to stance, drive the balls of your feet into the ground and get your weight (comfortably) forward so that your heels are light. Bend your knees a bit and blade your torso forward toward the target. Get behind that gun and get into a stance that is indifferent to recoil. It may not make much difference in standing practice (it will, but you may not see it right away) but it's even more of a benefit in shooting, and moving, and shooting some more. You'll find the key to a faster draw for yourself... is going to be faster hands. Do NOT focus getting onto the trigger more quickly at the end of the draw. That's a common mistake for D through B level shooters trying to trim down their draw time. Be explosive in getting to the gun - try to have the gun in motion out of the the holster before the beep sound stops coming from your timer. When you get your hand to the gun, pause just long enough to nail a high grip on the backstrap. Then explode the gun up and onto target... and use that extra 1/10 second you just gave yourself to be patient in developing a crisp A-zone sight picture for every string that you fire. Rush the draw-stroke itself. Do not rush the first shot. Your hands can move faster. Try it on video and see. Moving faster is free time, both hand speed during draws and reloads, and when running during a stage. Edited March 7, 2016 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Great advice. Especially the 'Rush the draw, not the shot'. That was the break through in my draw. Simply realizing I could move my hands faster/more aggressivly. I had settled at a certain speed that was 'safe' for my skill level at that time. As my gun handling skill and confidence improved I hadn't changed my hand speed. Getting BOTH hands moving fast and gun up and out with some aggression got me finally able to run sub 1 second draws in practice (like 5-7 yard targets). Makes a 1.5sec draw on a stage to say a 15 yard steel feel nice and steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith64w Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 For me its about squeezing crazy hard with my support hand. This seems to free up my trigger finger and the shots happen faster and more accurately. This conscious squeeze hard with support hand helps me in every way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 When starting out on Bill Drills, what distance should I shoot from, 7 yards? Should it stay there, or move further as shots get tighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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