d_striker Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 If I had any CO legal guns I'd be staying at nats for one extra day to shoot the CO Nationals (with irons) too. All my guns are too heavy. Same boat here. If I had any CO legal guns I'd be staying at nats for one extra day to shoot the CO Nationals (with irons) too. All my guns are too heavy. Why not shoot as Open division with heavy gun? I guess that would be one way to do it. I never thought about going into a major match with the full intention of getting bumped to Open. While you're at it, you could just load up to full capacity. One might have a good shot of winning Open division at the CO Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 If I had any CO legal guns I'd be staying at nats for one extra day to shoot the CO Nationals (with irons) too. All my guns are too heavy. Same boat here. If I had any CO legal guns I'd be staying at nats for one extra day to shoot the CO Nationals (with irons) too. All my guns are too heavy. Why not shoot as Open division with heavy gun? The open division does not have to be offered. They could just bump you to no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Hello: I say take your Glock and win CO with it. The Nationals will be a good test to see how this division will pan out and what rules will have to be changed/modified. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Have fun! Chuck Thank you Chuck. I have one more question. If I shoot my Tanfo Stock2 at CO Nats, I am just gonna get bumped up to Open division right? then I don't have to bring my glock if my intention is just to shoot CO nats for fun. I would ask DNROI just to be sure of how things work with a provisional division. But if it's treated like all the rest then yes, you would get bumped to Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? That's a reasonable assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? That's a reasonable assertion. I like this more than getting bumped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? If you have tape on your gun where it's not allowed in production is that unsportsmanlike conduct? Are other rules violations unsportsmanlike conduct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? If you have tape on your gun where it's not allowed in production is that unsportsmanlike conduct? Are other rules violations unsportsmanlike conduct? Is there a difference between an innocent mistake, and an intentional act? The hypothetical in the post that you quoted stated: "a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements...(emphasis added). If a person enters Revolver Nationals and (intentionally) shows up with a 2011 Open gun... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct?If you have tape on your gun where it's not allowed in production is that unsportsmanlike conduct?Are other rules violations unsportsmanlike conduct? Is there a difference between an innocent mistake, and an intentional act? The hypothetical in the post that you quoted stated: "a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements...(emphasis added). If a person enters Revolver Nationals and (intentionally) shows up with a 2011 Open gun... ? Would the R.O. even start the guy? I think the RM would get called to decide whether he could shoot or not. I would say he would shoot for no score since there is not a division for it in revolver nationals. Bad sportsmanship? Not in my opinion. Is it bad sportsmanship if a shooter didn't engage a target but the R.O. didn't catch it and the shooter doesn't step up to the plate and let the R.O. know he missed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? If you have tape on your gun where it's not allowed in production is that unsportsmanlike conduct? Are other rules violations unsportsmanlike conduct? Is there a difference between an innocent mistake, and an intentional act? The hypothetical in the post that you quoted stated: "a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements...(emphasis added). If a person enters Revolver Nationals and (intentionally) shows up with a 2011 Open gun... ? Nope not unsportsmanlike conduct. Why? Because we have a specific rule that addresses it and a procedure in place at Nationals (chrono) to reassign that competitor to the correct division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 He shouldn't be allowed to compete with the Open gun at a Revo match. He brought the wrong equipment, sorry about that. Unless we're into "do whatever you want, we just want to make everybody happy", of course. If he did it deliberately in order to be able to shoot his open gun regardless of the match's advertised purpose, that would be unsportsmanlike conduct (although of course we probably wouldn't be able to "prove" it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 He shouldn't be allowed to compete with the Open gun at a Revo match. He brought the wrong equipment, sorry about that. Unless we're into "do whatever you want, we just want to make everybody happy", of course. If he did it deliberately in order to be able to shoot his open gun regardless of the match's advertised purpose, that would be unsportsmanlike conduct (although of course we probably wouldn't be able to "prove" it). I'm pretty certain that most USPSA match directors wouldn't turn away someone who showed up for the Division X Nationals match with an open gun and an explanation that their division X gun broke a couple of days before the match. Most match directors would let that individual shoot for fun -- and some would even be nice enough to upload Open Division match results. When a friend of mine went sub-minor in Production on one of the intermediate days of the Summer Blast, Linda Chico was nice enough to put his scores in and upload them that Saturday night, so he could see where he would have placed. On Sunday, she removed him from the match. It was extra work for her -- but it also reinforced the reputation of the match of being shooter friendly, within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 A good point, Nik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Would showing up at nationals with a gun you know doesn't meet division requirements qualify as Unsportsmanlike Conduct? No. Foolish maybe why spend money on Hotel, Travel, Lodging and extra costs to compete with yourself? Those things usually, unless you are a local guy, will cost much more than the match fee. With no chance at a prize/prestige/awards to offset the costs. Now in the case of matches that pass out prizes "before" you even compete, I guess it would be a plan to show up and "play" the competitor until you pull out the Open gun, then get bumped to open, shoot the match for fun, be thought of oddly by other competitors, maybe get your name in Front Sight and hopefully have fun anyway. Still not an unsportsmanlike conduct though, you just won't compete for title/awarded prizes. As far as the original question, Carry Optics with Iron Sights: The more apt comparison would be for someone competing in Revolver, declared minor and shooting an 8 shot, whose 8 shot broke after the 1st shot. Pulls out their 6 shot backup in .45/.44 and shoots the match. They would still be relegated to shooting minor, just with the perceived disadvantage of using a 6 shot. Or Single Stack with the same issues major/minor vs capacity issues. For instance you can shoot Open Division with a Revolver/SS/Limited/Production gun and compete heads up for prizes/prestige/honor. So shooting Carry Optics Nationals with your iron sighted Production gun would be legal, as long as it meets ALL other restrictions. To not allow it would make no sense, what is expected of a C.O.R.E. competitor whose optics breaks, they give up and not use the co-witnessed iron sights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I'm not convinced its worthy of a DQ either, but I could make the argument that registering for a division that you KNEW your equipment didn't qualify for was cheating. It's not like you can register to shoot open at the match. As MD, I would be unhappy if I had a wait list of people wanting to shoot the match with division compliant equipment and found out competitors were registered knowing full well they were going to get bumped to open. (I doubt that will happen at this match, but throwing it out there as a hypothetical situation.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Because there is already an Open division. So your open gun weighs less than 35 oz, has no comp, magwell, popple holes, etc, etc and you only put 10 rds in the mag and of course shoot minor ammo, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Nimitz, not sure if you are asking me, but I have no problem with either new division. What anyone wants to shoot has no bearing on my fun. I think you are asking Sarge the same question I did, more eloquently. Yeah, sorry. Was using my laptop where I can't do the quote thingy .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun.I still don't understand why you think the only difference in the divisions is the optic? Don't you shoot open? Just the major/minor PF is enough for me. You also talk about the cost factor as a major reason for the division.. Not sure how many actual shooters you've talked to who are excited about CO but I have yet to find a single one who has said ... "I've been dying to shoot open for a long time but can't justify the cost. Now, finally with CO I can be an open shooter on the cheap ..... Let the good times roll !" What some of them are apparently saying is that they are interested in shooting a non-race gun division with an optic ... 2 very different things ... Edited January 24, 2016 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I'm not convinced its worthy of a DQ either, but I could make the argument that registering for a division that you KNEW your equipment didn't qualify for was cheating. It's not like you can register to shoot open at the match. As MD, I would be unhappy if I had a wait list of people wanting to shoot the match with division compliant equipment and found out competitors were registered knowing full well they were going to get bumped to open. (I doubt that will happen at this match, but throwing it out there as a hypothetical situation.) Agreed, but rules can't determine or be used to divine what someone thought. Even though it has to be obvious at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun.I still don't understand why you think the only difference in the divisions is the optic? Don't you shoot open? Just the major/minor PF is enough for me. You also talk about the cost factor as a major reason for the division.. Not sure how many actual shooters you've talked to who are excited about CO but I have yet to find a single one who has said ... "I've been dying to shoot open for a long time but can't justify the cost. Now, finally with CO I can be an open shooter on the cheap ..... Let the good times roll !" What some of them are apparently saying is that they are interested in shooting a non-race gun division with an optic ... 2 very different things ...And as for PCC, there may be no interest in your neck of the woods but the country is a very big place. By that logic I assume you're in favor of deleting L10, SS & Revo because there any many shooting this in most places around the country ,.... I'm all for PCC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I don't care about regular matches where people show up with guns not offered in the match. My concern is people showing up to shoot a national match for a PROVISIONAL division that needs to generate some serious numbers to succeed. Showing up with anything but a true CO gun should not be counted towards true numbers in attendance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I wonder how tough they will be on the guns being used? I imagine they will let people get by with anything close. To bump up the numbers. - Will they let iron sighted guns shoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I wonder how tough they will be on the guns being used? I imagine they will let people get by with anything close. To bump up the numbers. - Will they let iron sighted guns shoot? Another conspiracy theory .... Why do you think 'They' (whoever that is) will let them get away with anything ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I don't care about regular matches where people show up with guns not offered in the match. My concern is people showing up to shoot a national match for a PROVISIONAL division that needs to generate some serious numbers to succeed. Showing up with anything but a true CO gun should not be counted towards true numbers in attendance. A "true CO gun" = anything that is compliant with USPSA CO division rules, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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