Carry optics

[BritinUSA]

My main question is what other modifications can be made in CO? Originally I thought it was production only with optic, but reading the rules makes it seem like there are some barrel & trigger swaps that can be done.

Are there other items shooters are changing? In my local group there is only 2 shooting CO currently and neither are shooting Glock for now.

The appendix for CO has all the details that you nee, so refer to that for the official rulings.

Originally the only mods you could make we're the same ones as in Production, the BOD has changed the rules considerably from the original intent. You can modify the frame under the trigger guard and stipple all over the frame, even the bits that are not touched when gripping the gun. Which seems pointless to me, but what do I know?

Previously the only modification to the slide that was permitted was to mount the red dot, again this changed because a few people wanted to add front cocking serrations to the slide and also to lighten it. I think someone with a ZEV slide was probably the reason it was changed away from the original intent.

You can change the trigger internals but any external change has to be offered by the factory for that gun. So if externally, the trigger is a different shape to that offered by the original manufacturer of the gun then it's not allowed. That's the same as Production.

If you have a ported version of a gun on the Prod list then you can swap out the barrel for a non-ported version as long as the profile matches the original, again I think that's the same as Production.

If your plan is to go with an MOS then some minor changes to the trigger internals should be all you need to be competitive.

[BrianKr]

The biggest change I saw was the ability to stipple in areas that previously were a no-no on the frame. Does it also mean the front of the trigger guard?

I assume it means a landing area for the trigger finger as well. (IMO that's a safety issue and nothing more.)

Anyone?

I did ask my area coordinator about stippling mag bases before January, but I see that's still a no-no.

[trgt]

..My question is CZ shadow 2 or is it not legal?

Odds are you'd be OK, at some point.

First it needs to be added to Production list, but i imagine that will happen in short order once it's generally available here in the US.

Second, you'll have to manage weight, pistol is currently listed at 1.33 Kg, or 46.9 oz. My experience with an Accushadow (with Aussie barrel) was that removing iron sights and milling for optic, with light delta point gen 1 optic, allowed my pistol with mag (nickel 17 round with stoeger based) to be less than 41 ounces, a bit under the 42.176 oz weight USPSA has for pistol only. With the additional allowance for slide lightening cuts in CO, seems like you should be able to hit the 45 ounce with mag limit on the shadow 2.

Edited March 28, 2016 by trgt

[MikeA]

My main question is what other modifications can be made in CO? Originally I thought it was production only with optic, but reading the rules makes it seem like there are some barrel & trigger swaps that can be done.

Are there other items shooters are changing? In my local group there is only 2 shooting CO currently and neither are shooting Glock for now.

The appendix for CO has all the details that you nee, so refer to that for the official rulings.

Originally the only mods you could make we're the same ones as in Production, the BOD has changed the rules considerably from the original intent. You can modify the frame under the trigger guard and stipple all over the frame, even the bits that are not touched when gripping the gun. Which seems pointless to me, but what do I know?

Previously the only modification to the slide that was permitted was to mount the red dot, again this changed because a few people wanted to add front cocking serrations to the slide and also to lighten it. I think someone with a ZEV slide was probably the reason it was changed away from the original intent.

You can change the trigger internals but any external change has to be offered by the factory for that gun. So if externally, the trigger is a different shape to that offered by the original manufacturer of the gun then it's not allowed. That's the same as Production.

If you have a ported version of a gun on the Prod list then you can swap out the barrel for a non-ported version as long as the profile matches the original, again I think that's the same as Production.

If your plan is to go with an MOS then some minor changes to the trigger internals should be all you need to be competitive.

Thanks!

[JHoag]

I'm a relatively new USPSA shooter after a lay off of a few years. My eyes just weren't good enough any more and I was dropping lots of points on no shoots and such so I gave it up. I decided to start shooting again and I was setting up a gun for Open even though I didn't want to be there, but I needed optics for my older eyes. Just as I began setting it up CO was announced. I was one happy camper. I changed the ported barrel to an unported one and I was off. The only difference between what I would have been shooting in Open and CO is the barrel. I wouldn't have gone in for a real race gun and all the other paraphenalia. Seems to me that the division was made just for old farts like me who want to shoot but don't want to spend all of the money to be competitive in Open. I want to shoot just to have fun but I also want to have the illusion of being competitive.

Sorry if you young guys with great eyes don't see it. Maybe we just shouldn't shoot but others should? When our eyes go to hell we should just what, not shoot anymore? I don't see how it affects anyone who doesn't shoot it, so what's the problem? It brings more shooters to matches. I thought that's what competition was about... bringing folks to the shooting sports. :-) Or are the complainers afraid that maybe an old gent in a walker will show how badly they shoot in comparison? I simply don't get it.

It seems to me fragmentation and dividing shooters is exactly what the enemies of shooting want. Instead why not welcome the new shooters who need the new division?

BTW, for a few months I was the only shooter in CO locally. Now I see that there are at least half a dozen at each match. I think that's great; now I have people to gauge my shooting against.

Well said! Myself and a couple of my shooting friends are deciding to go to CO as well for all the same reasons you have mentioned.

Thanks

Edited April 2, 2016 by JHoag

[golfhack]

Me too. Just installed a CZ Custom picatinny rear sight on my Sp-01 so I can continue to use it with iron sights, and try out Carry Optics.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hitman]

The local matches I attend have about 8 to 10 CO out of 40 to 50 shooters.

[RolexJohn]

Does CO allow for any trigger work/modification? Would my Apex trigger on the below gun be OK? If I load my 12 round magazines with 10 rounds, am I rules compliant?

[Bkreutz]

Does CO allow for any trigger work/modification? Would my Apex trigger on the below gun be OK? If I load my 12 round magazines with 10 rounds, am I rules compliant?

No, the trigger change isn't authorized. (same rules as production). The rules allow internal modification but nothing that is visible from the outside.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Bkreutz

[RolexJohn]

Does CO allow for any trigger work/modification? Would my Apex trigger on the below gun be OK? If I load my 12 round magazines with 10 rounds, am I rules compliant?

No, the trigger change isn't authorized. (same rules as production). The rules allow internal modification but nothing that is visible from the outside.

In the name of all that's holy, WHY?!?!? Look, if you're trying to attract guys that carry guns with optics, you can bet the most of these guys (like myself) are going to have modified triggers. Understand that many, if not most of CCW folks who have an optic on their gun do NOT do so because they have poor eyesight. Most do it because they want the best possible tool money can buy in a life or death situation. If a guy is going to spend the jack for an optic, he'll spring for a better trigger too...

Oh well...maybe when the Sig P320 RX comes out and I pick one up, I'll reconsider trying USPSA...

-John

Edited April 6, 2016 by RolexJohn

[thermobollocks]

In that case, why wouldn't you just shoot Open with what you have?

[Bkreutz]

Does CO allow for any trigger work/modification? Would my Apex trigger on the below gun be OK? If I load my 12 round magazines with 10 rounds, am I rules compliant?

No, the trigger change isn't authorized. (same rules as production). The rules allow internal modification but nothing that is visible from the outside.

In the name of all that's holy, WHY?!?!? Look, if you're trying to attract guys that carry guns with optics, you can bet the most of these guys (like myself) are going to have modified triggers. Understand that many, if not most of CCW folks who have an optic on their gun do NOT do so because they have poor eyesight. Most do it because they want the best possible tool money can buy in a life or death situation. If a guy is going to spend the jack for an optic, he'll spring for a better trigger too...

Oh well...maybe when the Sig P320 RX comes out and I pick one up, I'll reconsider trying USPSA...

-John

I'm assuming the reason is that originally one of the proposed names of this division was "Production Optics" so they carried most of the Production rules over. Just remember, this is still a provisional division so the rules may change quite a bit while it's still in the provisional status.

[BritinUSA]

My two cents; They should put Production Optics back as it was originally intended and create a Modified division for all those people that want to change every damn thing on their gun excluding a compensator as long as it fits in a box.

Edited April 6, 2016 by BritinUSA

[bikerburgess]

My two cents; They should put Production Optics back as it was originally intended and create a Modified division for all those people that want to change every damn thing on their gun excluding a compensator as long as it fits in a box.

My two cents is why have two divisions with rules that are hard to impossible to enforce. heck we cant even enforce the easy ones

(example two Production National championships (2014 and 2015) were run under a rule set that made having a plastic plug in your GLOCK illegal, as far as I know no one was bumped to open for it and I would bet a large sum of money that most of the GLOCKs had one)

[Gooldylocks]

My two cents; They should put Production Optics back as it was originally intended and create a Modified division for all those people that want to change every damn thing on their gun excluding a compensator as long as it fits in a box.

If you want to bring back modified, then bring it back in all its glory. If it fits, its legal.

[racerba]

My two cents; They should put Production Optics back as it was originally intended and create a Modified division for all those people that want to change every damn thing on their gun excluding a compensator as long as it fits in a box.

that would be modified division...

[BritinUSA]

My two cents; They should put Production Optics back as it was originally intended and create a Modified division for all those people that want to change every damn thing on their gun excluding a compensator as long as it fits in a box.

If you want to bring back modified, then bring it back in all its glory. If it fits, its legal.

I don't want to bring it back, I just want Production Optics the way it was originally proposed rather than diluting it down to fit every single change that anyone could make to what was otherwise a production-legal gun.

[Bkreutz]

I was just commenting on the provisional rules. Personally I detest rules so I shoot Open. My pea brain can't keep track of all the equipment stuff

[racerba]

I'm assuming the reason is that originally one of the proposed names of this division was "Production Optics" so they carried most of the Production rules over. Just remember, this is still a provisional division so the rules may change quite a bit while it's still in the provisional status.

I thought it is a real division now...I didn't think it was provisional...

Edited April 6, 2016 by racerba

[Bkreutz]

Yes, still provisional, which is a good thing. If it was a "real" division, equipment rules couldn't be changed more than once in a two year period. (USPSA rules). Since it's provisional, that restriction doesn't apply. I'm not sure when it will be approved (and really don't care ) but I suspect a few things will be "adjusted" before it becomes an official division.

http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/APPENDIX%20D7_DNROI_2.pdf

[pete627]

If they do "just one more thing" I hope it will be to dump the 10 round limit!!

Perhaps the 140mm magazine allowance in the latest update is an indicator??!?

[BrianKr]

I don't think that you'll see the 10 round limit disappear. Isn't it CA that has that limitation and CO is tied to production guns so...

The 10 round limit extends to all shooters and levels the playing field in all states, and also makes stages interesting IMO. Since it's minor PF anyway, hits matter so anything that takes up time without giving hit points hurt. The key is to be efficient and recharge the handgun rapidly. So says me, possibly one of the slowest shooters on the planet. :-)

IMO you want fast reloads and all A zone hits for minor. Doing it fast is also good. I know it's been said before, but fast misses won't do it. Fast at shooting I'm not, but I'm working on that. In truth I may not actually be among the slowest shooters on the planet, but I'm certainly not among the fastest. At my age I doubt I'll get much faster and I acknowledge that.

Assuming the 10 round limit is lifted, it affects all of us equally, so there goes any advantage it might confer on someone. Since I'm not especially fast it would help me more than other folks, but I simply don't care. It's a game and I'm in it for the fun and to learn to channel shooting stress into a positive direction. I'm OK with it either way, I'll just need to buy a few (more) mag' extensions. No big deal, except that my times will improve along with everyone else's. Everything will stay the same as far as handicap IMO, but % timewise I'd make out. But to me it makes no difference. I don't shoot against others. In my mind I shoot against me. Make all the changes and lift limits... I still shoot against me.

But I'm curious (not overly curious) to know what the thinking was in the mag size. I'm going to use it to simplify my first magazine. I'll be loading a 140mm extended mag with 11 rounds for one in the chamber and 10 in the mag at the beep. Just keeping things simple. I like simple. I have no use for a 140mm extension other than that. I ordered one today. It'll designate the 11 round mag in a way that even I can't confuse. No fumbling with mags or mag confusion before the beep. For me a clearer mind to think about the stage. Yes, I have confused mags and totally wiped out my stage strategy, hence my using a rule to my advantage to keep things straight. If they had made it a 170mm mag rule I would have used that for the 1st 11 round mag. I see no difference. It's 10 rounds in the mag no matter how big it is in the mag holder before the beep.

[BritinUSA]

Regarding the magazine rule; I think that was in the first release of the provisional division and further I think it was to address the issue of the box. In Production there is a requirement that the gun and an empty magazine fit inside this box. With the addition of an electronic sight the gun would not fit. There are two alternatives to this problem; The first is to make a cut-out on one side of the box to accommodate the height of the sight, the second option was to remove the box and instead add a magazine restriction. As only Production-legal guns are permitted in the CO division then there should be no need to test with the box anyway, but removing it could have allowed for longer magazines, hence the limit on the overall length.

Regarding the 10 rounds; To me this is what makes this division (and Production) so exciting and challenging. With Open/Limited guns there is little risk in going fast, miss a few hits and there are plenty of bullets to make up for the extra shots. With Production and Carry Optics there is a limited number of rounds, assuming eight shot arrays the competitor has 2-3 rounds spare to play with before a forced standing reload has to occur. The minor scoring adds that additional element, whether or not to shoot on the move or stand and shoot for the extra points. Its the art of finding that PERFECT balance of speed and accuracy that makes these divisions so much more rewarding. Changing that 10 round limit would destroy the core element of both divisions.

[Brooke]

Production Optics is what it should be. Everybody has some pet change they seem to want. That is also true of the current rules for all divisions. It's a never ending cycle of I want a rule just for me..................................Production Optics with no changes except those required to allow for the optic

[pete627]

All good points on capacity.

Reading these and other comments on the USPSA forum I can see the justification for a fixed round count as opposed to "how many you can stuff into a magazine" (like … driving the division to 9mm for the capacity advantage).

… and … I have a 40 … what was I thinking??