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Carry optics


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I don't see the 10 round limit as a consequence of dumb laws but rather the desire to make these divisions more challenging. Since switching to a 10 round division my enjoyment of the sport has increased considerably, other competitors may see the magazine limitation as a deterrent, but for those that enjoy the challenge of the sport it becomes an attraction.

Putting more rounds in the gun will make the division easier, for me that's a bad thing. I want the challenge, that's why I shoot.

You do realize you're in the minority on this, right? When given the choice most prefer shooting higher capacity guns as demonstrated by the participation levels in Limited vs. L10. If as a test to see which people preferred USPSA temporarily offered two CO divisions, one with 10 rounds and one with 140mm mags and no round limit I'm pretty sure you'd see everyone making the same choice as they do with Limited/L10.

And you keep saying higher capacity divisions are easier. They're not easier, the challenges are just different. It's no easier to win Limited Nationals than Production Nationals...

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What guns would be no longer competitive with a 14 round limit?

Well, guns in CA. Maybe others (NY, CT?).

So??? I don't plan on going to those states

I was answering IronArchers question. It's not about you, sorry. Why would you think that it was?

I guess you are on anti-humor medication. Clearly you did not take it the right way. I have been supporting 10 rounds from the beginning. I can see the reasons behind higher capacity, either way is fine with me

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I don't see the 10 round limit as a consequence of dumb laws but rather the desire to make these divisions more challenging.

i don't think it makes much difference in challenge. If anything it makes stage breakdown simpler because there are fewer options to consider. However it does seem to increase the diversity of pistols that actually are viable. I think that's not a bad thing.

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I don't see the 10 round limit as a consequence of dumb laws but rather the desire to make these divisions more challenging. Since switching to a 10 round division my enjoyment of the sport has increased considerably, other competitors may see the magazine limitation as a deterrent, but for those that enjoy the challenge of the sport it becomes an attraction.

Putting more rounds in the gun will make the division easier, for me that's a bad thing. I want the challenge, that's why I shoot.

You do realize you're in the minority on this, right? When given the choice most prefer shooting higher capacity guns as demonstrated by the participation levels in Limited vs. L10. If as a test to see which people preferred USPSA temporarily offered two CO divisions, one with 10 rounds and one with 140mm mags and no round limit I'm pretty sure you'd see everyone making the same choice as they do with Limited/L10.

I don't that people would prefer it so much as they would have no other choice. Luckily now we have choices. If you suck at reloading there are multiple high-cap divisions to choose from. No one is trying to change limited or open to make them more restrictive. Enjoy, freedom, murica.

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The mag capacity limit is gone nationally, but it is still around in a lot of states.

That argument doesn't go very far.

Are you suggesting that nobody shoots Open in California, since they have a 10-round mag limit?

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Lots of people who like Limited, Open, or other shooting using high capacity mags do not suck at reloading. Some are even very good at it. Doesn't mean they want to shoot 6, 8, or 10 round guns just because it's "more challenging". Maybe they just don't enjoy it.

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Lots of people who like Limited, Open, or other shooting using high capacity mags do not suck at reloading. Some are even very good at it. Doesn't mean they want to shoot 6, 8, or 10 round guns just because it's "more challenging". Maybe they just don't enjoy it.

Pretty sure he said that in jest, no need to get defensive.

Choices is good. I think 10 rounds is good for CO. If you guys want to have higher capacity then I vote for Modified, with the old ruleset. If it fits the production box, go for it. 40 for major.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Not defensive - just about the 3rd time in this thread he has made the same comment about people who suck at reloading or don't want to practice, or who are not up to the challenge. Just posting an alternative view point.

For the record, I think Carry Optics should be Production Optics and with 10 rounds.

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Not defensive - just about the 3rd time in this thread he has made the same comment about people who suck at reloading or don't want to practice, or who are not up to the challenge. Just posting an alternative view point.

For the record, I think Carry Optics should be Production Optics and with 10 rounds.

Moto is very much like a very opinionated broken record, he says the same weirdly aggressive or demeaning things over and over again. But once you wade through that, he generally has some useful information to share. :cheers:

I don't think that the difference between capacity is a huge motivator in what division people shoot. If you want to shoot open, then generally you want to shoot with a dot and comp and all the go fast stuff. I don't think that for most people it is just because you get to not reload as often. He knows that (at least, I think he does...).

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The mag capacity limit is gone nationally, but it is still around in a lot of states.

That argument doesn't go very far.

Are you suggesting that nobody shoots Open in California, since they have a 10-round mag limit?

I have never claimed to know what goes on in California, and I don't particularly want to.

I said above that I really don't mind shooting the 10rd limit. We already have four limited capacity divisions (two of which have actual participation). We have two open capacity divisions.

So I really don't care where the limit goes for co. I suppose we don't have minor scoring with 140mm open magazines. I don't know if that matters.

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I suppose we don't have minor scoring with 140mm open magazines. I don't know if that matters.

That brings up a minor point that I'm still scratching my head over. Maybe it was discussed somewhere in the last 13 pages and I missed it: why restrict both mag length and mag capacity? If you have a 10-round limit, does running a big stick provide some kind of advantage?

Or maybe this was put in so it's set up to eventually drop the 10-round limit from the rules?

Edited by Garrett
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I suppose we don't have minor scoring with 140mm open magazines. I don't know if that matters.

That brings up a minor point that I'm still scratching my head over. Maybe it was discussed somewhere in the last 13 pages and I missed it: why restrict both mag length and mag capacity? If you have a 10-round limit, does running a big stick provide some kind of advantage?

Or maybe this was put in so it's set up to eventually drop the 10-round limit from the rules?

I don't really get that either. I assume it could be that some people reload the 140s better than they do production length magazines. I know with my little hands I generally prefer to reload to the shortest magazine I can.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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It's because with optics the Production box rule doesn't work, and with add on aftermarket base pads being so common they wanted to restrict mag length in some way, but still allow pads and aftermarket mags..... 140mm is already a measurement we use, so there you go.

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Moto is very much like a very opinionated broken record, he says the same weirdly aggressive or demeaning things over and over again.

Yeah, it's the internet, and the topic of capacity limits is also a broken record.

I like all you guys and consider you my friends, and I treat my internet buddies like my regular squadmates at our local matches, so I give people a little harder time than I would to people who aren't my friends. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. :cheers:

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Lots of people who like Limited, Open, or other shooting using high capacity mags do not suck at reloading. Some are even very good at it. Doesn't mean they want to shoot 6, 8, or 10 round guns just because it's "more challenging". Maybe they just don't enjoy it.

there are still multiple high-cap divisions to choose from, for people that don't enjoy the low-cap ones.

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There are some interesting stats from azshooters.org that might add to discussion. I broke it down by high cap vs low cap.

From Feb 2016

51.5% of people are shooting one of 2 high cap divisions

48.5% of people are shooting one of 5 low cap divisions

Over the last 2 years

+8.5% increase in high cap division participation. Each of the high cap divisions have increased participation.

-8.5% decrease in low cap division participation. Each of the low cap divisions have reduced participation.

Data suggest that the high cap divisions are both more popular today and are growing while only have 2 divisions to choose from. While low cap participation is less popular and is shrinking across all of its prevision 4 divisions.

So why add another low capacity division in Carry Optics?

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Data suggest that the high cap divisions are both more popular today and are growing while only have 2 divisions to choose from. While low cap participation is less popular and is shrinking across all of its prevision 4 divisions.

So why add another low capacity division in Carry Optics?

to balance out the high-cap division of PCC. :devil:

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There are some interesting stats from azshooters.org that might add to discussion. I broke it down by high cap vs low cap.

From Feb 2016

51.5% of people are shooting one of 2 high cap divisions

48.5% of people are shooting one of 5 low cap divisions

Over the last 2 years

+8.5% increase in high cap division participation. Each of the high cap divisions have increased participation.

-8.5% decrease in low cap division participation. Each of the low cap divisions have reduced participation.

Data suggest that the high cap divisions are both more popular today and are growing while only have 2 divisions to choose from. While low cap participation is less popular and is shrinking across all of its prevision 4 divisions.

So why add another low capacity division in Carry Optics?

People choose divisions for other reasons besides mag capacity. I think a better test would be comparing 2 divisions that are identical besides mag capacity and then seeing which everyone prefers. I don't have the stats in front of me but isn't it something like 95% choosing Limited over L10 ;)

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There are some interesting stats from azshooters.org that might add to discussion. I broke it down by high cap vs low cap.

From Feb 2016

51.5% of people are shooting one of 2 high cap divisions

48.5% of people are shooting one of 5 low cap divisions

Over the last 2 years

+8.5% increase in high cap division participation. Each of the high cap divisions have increased participation.

-8.5% decrease in low cap division participation. Each of the low cap divisions have reduced participation.

Data suggest that the high cap divisions are both more popular today and are growing while only have 2 divisions to choose from. While low cap participation is less popular and is shrinking across all of its prevision 4 divisions.

So why add another low capacity division in Carry Optics?

People choose divisions for other reasons besides mag capacity. I think a better test would be comparing 2 divisions that are identical besides mag capacity and then seeing which everyone prefers. I don't have the stats in front of me but isn't it something like 95% choosing Limited over L10 ;)

You don't have enough information from the data set you derived the 'stats' from to make a good decision, at least one that I think you'd be happy with. Revolver and Single Stack have nothing to do with overall capacity, those are two enthusiast groups based on the platform, just let them be. From what I've seen at many club these members while few, are true enthusiasts and are disproportionally helpful to matches and the sport generally compared to the other divisions.

If you look at this like you are managing a portfolio of products with price points, Open and Limited are really the playground for expensive custom guns, pick iron sights vs comp/optic, and go. Production is proven as the popular under $2000 division and fastest growing division, let's leverage it and add optic to get similar robust products in the under $2000 group. Carry optics can over time grow to the similar analogy that Open is to Limited, just let folks have option red dot or iron sight, its not that hard. (And limited 10 is a bust as a place for expensive limited guns to play with downloaded mags, that hasn't played out, folks just shoot production).

Whether you agree with anything I just wrote or not, this product portfolio view is probably as valid an observation about what to keep or kill, as the 'stats' based analysis above. ... and CA opinion counts 5x that of MN, since the stats say we have over 5 times as many registered USPSA members as MN ;-)

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Production is proven as the popular under $2000 division and fastest growing division,

I had thought the same thing until I saw this data and it made me rethink this. I think it is safe to say production has been over the long term been great with lots of growth but over the last 2 years has been shrinking.

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Production is proven as the popular under $2000 division and fastest growing division,

I had thought the same thing until I saw this data and it made me rethink this. I think it is safe to say production has been over the long term been great with lots of growth but over the last 2 years has been shrinking.

in the beginning, it started out being popular as the new division...new shooters coming into the sport will usually start in Production...as they learn the sport, some will move on to other divisions...maybe we already tapped into introducing the bulk of new shooters into the sport...so the number of new shooters are smaller than the number of experienced shooters moving to other divisions...thus showing the shrinking numbers...

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Data suggest that the high cap divisions are both more popular today and are growing while only have 2 divisions to choose from. While low cap participation is less popular and is shrinking across all of its prevision 4 divisions.

So why add another low capacity division in Carry Optics?

to balance out the high-cap division of PCC. :devil:

No their were 4 restricted/ low capacity divisions before they added CO making it 5 to 2 (Open and Limited). When we add PCC it will still be 5 to 3. I agree I don see why we added a low capacity division with mags that need to fit the 140mm Gage.

Edited by 2011BLDR
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Data suggest that the high cap divisions are both more popular today and are growing while only have 2 divisions to choose from. While low cap participation is less popular and is shrinking across all of its prevision 4 divisions.

So why add another low capacity division in Carry Optics?

to balance out the high-cap division of PCC. :devil:

No their were 4 restricted/ low capacity divisions before they added CO making it 5 to 2 (Open and Limited). When we add PCC it will still be 5 to 3. I agree I don see why we added a low capacity division with mags that need to fit the 140mm Gage.

well right, but that's because low-cap divisions are twice as more better than high-cap, so there should be twice as many. By adding PCC, we need to add another low-cap division, maybe for compact carry guns.

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