Poorly adjusted popper gets shot down.

[ttownracer]

Calibration of the falling popper was not the reason for a reshoot. The reshoot was awarded because the shooter was allowed to begin a stage the RO later admitted was defective or broken. He knew this to be true and loaded up shooters anyway. I'm no USPSA expert so I was trying to understand the other shooters dismay.

What if it was not a popper but a door that had fallen off its hinges and an RO kept starting people. BTW this particular RO is an a$$.

This.

Holding a shooter responsible for taking the risk of stopping and asking for calibration of a prop that is known by the MD and RO to be malfunctioning prior to the start of the competitors shooting is absurd.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited November 2, 2015 by ttownracer

[bret]

Shoot the course, if the steel doesn't fall, ask for a calibration.

[motosapiens]

Shoot the course, if the steel doesn't fall, ask for a calibration.

Present a fair course to the shooter. If it's broken, fix it.

[bret]

There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.

I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.

But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that:

1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ".

2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge.

Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly?

Fraud?

Seriously?

[bret]

Shoot the course, if the steel doesn't fall, ask for a calibration.

Present a fair course to the shooter. If it's broken, fix it.

If the shooter doesn't think the course is fair, have the range officer call the range master,if you don't think the range master handled it by the rules or fairly, ask the RM to call the Match Director.

If the Match Director doesn't handle it fairly and by the rules, you can take it to arbitration.

Or choose not to shoot their matches in the future.

[motosapiens]

Shoot the course, if the steel doesn't fall, ask for a calibration.

Present a fair course to the shooter. If it's broken, fix it.

If the shooter doesn't think the course is fair, have the range officer call the range master,if you don't think the range master handled it by the rules or fairly, ask the RM to call the Match Director.

If the Match Director doesn't handle it fairly and by the rules, you can take it to arbitration.

Or choose not to shoot their matches in the future.

How is the shooter supposed to know the course is fair or not, esp if the RO's know but conceal that information?

Sounds to me like the RM handled the situation appropriately, although I could totally see throwing out a stage with a problematic prop too.

Edited November 2, 2015 by motosapiens

[Chills1994]

You know what, I'll go against the grain.

Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it.

And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match.

Quote the rule that allows this?

You start allowing this to happen, then there will always be an excuse for a reshoot.

Not the first time we've had a discussion like this, and it looks like the usual suspects are lined up on the usual sides of the issue. If the stage is obviously broken, a reshoot is in order due to a range equipment malfunction.

more importantly, RO's should take care of a known problem *before* it screws someone and hardasses who only read some of the rules finish the screwing.

A broken or malfunctioning prop has been cause for reshoot before, even at nationals.

Yup!

[Chills1994]

There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.

I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.

But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that:

1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ".

2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge.

Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly?

Fraud?

Seriously?

There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.

I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.

But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that:

1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ".

2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge.

Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly?

Fraud?

Seriously?

Yes, fraud:

deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach ofconfidence, perpetrated for profit or to gainsome unfair or dishonest advantage.

When I purchase a match with my match entry fee, then I have exhibited some confidence or that I expect the USPSA match to be run according to X, Y, or Z conditions with the underlying premise that things will be fair for all the competitors.

[bret]

There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.

I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.

But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that:

1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ".

2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge.

Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly?

Fraud?

Seriously?

There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.

I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.

But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that:

1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ".

2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge.

Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly?

Fraud?

Seriously?

Yes, fraud:

deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach ofconfidence, perpetrated for profit or to gainsome unfair or dishonest advantage.

When I purchase a match with my match entry fee, then I have exhibited some confidence or that I expect the USPSA match to be run according to X, Y, or Z conditions with the underlying premise that things will be fair for all the competitors.

If you think someone is committing fraud, call the FBI.

[Chills1994]

Nahhh...I just wouldn't buy their match any more. And like just about anything else where I had a bad customer service issue, I'd be sure to tell others about it too.

If the RO and RM are negligent with those duties, then what about safety?

Would they be so lackadaisical if a popper was somehow launching bullets over the berm?

Edited November 2, 2015 by Chills1994

[Sarge]

You know what, I'll go against the grain.

Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it.

And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match.

Quote the rule that allows this?

You start allowing this to happen, then there will always be an excuse for a reshoot.

Not the first time we've had a discussion like this, and it looks like the usual suspects are lined up on the usual sides of the issue. If the stage is obviously broken, a reshoot is in order due to a range equipment malfunction.

more importantly, RO's should take care of a known problem *before* it screws someone and hardasses who only read some of the rules finish the screwing.

A broken or malfunctioning prop has been cause for reshoot before, even at nationals.

Yup!

I agree! Too many people are not willing to learn and apply the rules

[Chills1994]

A rule, eh?

Is this kinda like the zero tolerance policies in place at many schools where little Timmy can't chew his pop tart into the shape of a gun?

I guess its easier to just blindly follow rules than to apply some "common sense".

[Steve RA]

I'd hate to have to reset the popper if it was really "pooply" !!!

[Sarge]

A rule, eh?

Is this kinda like the zero tolerance policies in place at many schools where little Timmy can't chew his pop tart into the shape of a gun?

I guess its easier to just blindly follow rules than to apply some "common sense".

Like is said, I agreed with vlad and want to do the same thing but there just isn't a "common sense" rule for us to use.

From the OP's description the pooply set popper was just one of many failures in this instance.

[bret]

A rule, eh?

Is this kinda like the zero tolerance policies in place at many schools where little Timmy can't chew his pop tart into the shape of a gun?

I guess its easier to just blindly follow rules than to apply some "common sense".

Like is said, I agreed with vlad and want to do the same thing but there just isn't a "common sense" rule for us to use.

From the OP's description the pooply set popper was just one of many failures in this instance.

At Nationals there was a complaint about a piece of steel, the shooter took a couple of shots on it and it fell, they complained the CRO looked at it, said it was OK.

A couple shooters later one good hit and it didn't fall, it was in the calibration area and they called for a recalibration, it didn't fall so they got a reshoot.

Now every shooter before her that didn't like how they did wanted a reshoot.

They were not given a reshoot because they shot the steel and it fell when they shot.

I haven't been shooting long but only have seen 2 calibration checks work out in favor of the shooter.

[MarkCO]

I haven't been shooting long but only have seen 2 calibration checks work out in favor of the shooter.

The vast majority of the time, the shooter ends up with a miss on a calibration challenge. I have probably shot 50+ calibrations challenges and 2 benefitted the shooter. Once I shot the popper from the wrong place and once I hit the popper above the calibration zone. While I have all the confidence that in both cases, if I had done my part they would have been scored as misses, but both shooters got reshoots.

Every morning, and sometimes at lunch breaks, I go shoot all the poppers in my match with 122PF ammo and make sure they are properly adjusted. If they look like they are going over a tad quick, I shoot them with a 100PF load and make sure they stay standing.

Edited November 2, 2015 by MarkCO

[Chills1994]

The issue is not necessarily that any and all shooters should have asked for a calibration.

By the sounds of it, the RO and RM knew it wasn't a properly functioning popper, but decided to pass the buck onto the shooter to ask for a calibration instead of just fixing the problem in the first place.

Kinda makes me wonder if the RO and RM weren't both also shooting minor power factor loads themselves and/or shooting production???

Did they shoot on the first day before the rest of the shooters did, when the popper was more likely to be functioning properly?

[JAFO]

Once the shooter dropped the popper, he owns the run. Having said that, they should have thrown it out.

4.6.3 Chronic malfunction of equipment in a course of fire may result in the removal of that stage from the match results (see Rule 2.3.4).

Edited November 2, 2015 by JAFO

[Chills1994]

A rule, eh?

Is this kinda like the zero tolerance policies in place at many schools where little Timmy can't chew his pop tart into the shape of a gun?

I guess its easier to just blindly follow rules than to apply some "common sense".

Like is said, I agreed with vlad and want to do the same thing but there just isn't a "common sense" rule for us to use.

From the OP's description the pooply set popper was just one of many failures in this instance.

At Nationals there was a complaint about a piece of steel, the shooter took a couple of shots on it and it fell, they complained the CRO looked at it, said it was OK.

A couple shooters later one good hit and it didn't fall, it was in the calibration area and they called for a recalibration, it didn't fall so they got a reshoot.

Now every shooter before her that didn't like how they did wanted a reshoot.

They were not given a reshoot because they shot the steel and it fell when they shot.

I haven't been shooting long but only have seen 2 calibration checks work out in favor of the shooter.

I would ASSume that people going to nationals would have gained enough experience/knowledge of the sport to ask for a calibration after they finished the stage.

I would also assume that the people who officiate and run a nat's type event would be of a higher caliber, and be proactive enough to fix the prop malfunction as soon as it became feasible or most appropriate to do so.

[JayWord]

Original Poster

Upon ULASC the RO said. "That target has been screwed up all morning. I would have already fixed it but the RM told all staff to not mess with the poppers and wait for a shooter to call for calibration so I have left it alone. You should have stopped It is really screwed up". The shooter replied. "Why have you not called the RM for calibration?". The RO "No one asked"

The following is only my opinion:

There are a couple of issues with the above statement. The most important one is once the stage is approved by the RM, that stage is mine. If I was told by a RM not to keep my stage in proper working order, then I would tell him to park his cart on my stage because the second that popper went out of adjustment he better be there fixing it. We teach our CRO students that keeping the stage in proper working order is their responsiblity. Making sure the poppers are properly adjusted is part of their duties. If it was broken it should have been fixed immediately. (see 4.6.1/ 4.6.2). The whole calibration system depends on the concept that the poppers are being kept in proper working order. In reality, we all know that they need to be checked at least every other squad to make sure the lock nuts have not come loose, the popper has not settled and the pins have not moved or fell out, etc. That is just part of routine stage maintenance.

As far as the reshoot is concerned, that is another issue. I would not even give you odds on how an arbitration committee would rule on this. The statement by the RO that he knew it was screwed up most likely would have resulted at best with a reshoot for the shooter and most likely would cost you a stage since you have no idea how many other shooters were affected by the malfunctioning popper. Shooters do not leave activator poppers standing because of the extreme penalties under 9.9.3. To expect a shooter to leave that popper standing and take their chances in a calibration challenge are at best wishful thinking. So the rules state if the popper is down it cannot be calibrated. I agree, but if we know the popper is bad because the RO told you it was, I would be calling the RM and asking for a reshoot under 4.6.2. The ball is now in his court and leaves you an out to arbitration.

So the RM gave an inreasonable order and the RO failed his duty by not calling to get it fixed before it malfunctioned. Especially, since the RO knew it was bad and let the shooters continue until some poor shooter got screwed and then called? Are you kidding me??

Jay

[Nik Habicht]

Shoot the course, if the steel doesn't fall, ask for a calibration.

Present a fair course to the shooter. If it's broken, fix it.

If the shooter doesn't think the course is fair, have the range officer call the range master,if you don't think the range master handled it by the rules or fairly, ask the RM to call the Match Director.

If the Match Director doesn't handle it fairly and by the rules, you can take it to arbitration.

Or choose not to shoot their matches in the future.

Once the match is in progress, the match director has nothing to do with anything, other than putting together an arbitration committee when needed. So the appeal order is RO --> CRO --> RM -->Arbitration (assuming that arbitration isn't prohibited by the rules.....

You can certainly provide feedback on the RM's performance to the MD, to see if a different RM can be asked to run the match in the future -- but that's about the extent of MD influence on anything at that point....

[Nik Habicht]

There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.

I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.

But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that:

1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ".

2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge.

Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly?

Fraud?

Seriously?

Fraud might come into play when you're paying a multi-thousand dollar match fee, and everyone on the staff is getting paid handsomely to put on a match. As long as folks are volunteering -- I'm not likely to entertain a fraud complaint.....

[Chills1994]

Go back up and read the definition of fraud I posted. It is from dictionary.com . I am emphasizing the part "breach of confidence".

I am not empasizing whatever the Black's Legal Dictionary definition of "fraud" might be.

[9x45]

Maybe negligence, or stupidity, on the RM/RO's part for knowingly letting shooters run on a defective popper, but not fraud. Won't that involve criminal intent? However, I think if a great number of shooters had the same issue, they should have tossed the stage. By the way, did you OP's ammo make the power floor during chrono? Here's the deal on calibration, if you only shoot it with known 125 PF ammo, it could be set to allot less than that, maybe 80 or 90? So now low hits would probably activate it. I've shot poppers so light that a near miss caused enough pressure drop passing by to activate it......

[CHA-LEE]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

As a competitor I have only had to call for a calibration prior to shooting the stage twice out of a crap ton of matches I have attended. But in both instances the steel failed calibration and needed to be readjusted.

As a Match Director or Range Master I do my best to ensure that the steel is adjusted properly and set it up so it won't require adjustment throughout the match. Proactively having all of the steel shot with calibration ammo in the morning and at lunch break on each day of the match goes a long way in maintaining proper calibration. Then placing heavy poppers on a small sheet of plywood works wonders in keeping it from digging into the dirt and requiring repeated adjustment to keep it calibrated properly.