Start Position

[BARRYJ]

It's not obvious. You were wanting to turn your feet toward a 45 and the RO wouldn't let you? That sucks.

[d_striker]

It's not obvious. You were wanting to turn your feet toward a 45 and the RO wouldn't let you? That sucks.

I'm not referencing anything specific that happened to me. I post these questions on this forum for two reasons.

1.) I want to be a better RO that is enforcing rules correctly.

2.) I want to be a better competitor that knows what I am and am not entitled to do within the rules. I don't like getting into rules arguments with RO's when I'm making ready.

[Sarge]

By the time a shooter enters the start area, it's too late to write a better stage description. I would shoot it like he wanted me too, and if I felt strongly enough that it was wrong, I would find a range master. If all it says is standing inside shooting area with heels on x's, you should be able to face any way you want. But, why would you want to face anything other than downrange?

Do you know what downrange is? It's defined in the rule book. There are countless advantages to not not facing downrange at a start. Same for uprange. If it's allowed you can often turn far enough to see the first targets you will draw to after the beep.

[Gary Stevens]

Our sport is freestyle, but that doesn't apply to start positions. That being said keep the start position simple, write the WSB to say what you want, and move on.

Getting all wrapped around the axel over a start position is just plain dumb, shooter or RO.

[BARRYJ]

And getting all wrapped up over something that didn't happen is also plain dumb. I assumed the op was talking about something that happened to him. We can "what if" this to death.

[Gary Stevens]

I guess it depends on what the meaning of is, is to borrow a phrase from Bill Clinton.

This forum has always been a sounding board for questions real or hypothetical. I can garuntee no matter how extreme or foolish a question might be it will most likely come up somewhere down the road.

Always better to have some knowledge base before you have to make that decision or to respond to a decision that has been made.

Fortunately not everyone on this forum thinks in lockstep. This gives a questioner a wide variety of information to choose from.

[d_striker]

And getting all wrapped up over something that didn't happen is also plain dumb. I assumed the op was talking about something that happened to him. We can "what if" this to death.

Who is getting "wrapped" up?

[NickBlasta]

Next you'll tell me that if I write "in Box A" the competitor can do anything he wants?

I think from now on I'll just recommend that folks attend and RO class or three when they have rulebook questions.....

There's a difference between specifying a start location -- your feet need to be touching marks at this location, or you need to be standing in this box or you need to be standing inside the free fire zone and specifying the position a competitor's body needs to be in......

In any event -- good ROs won't start you if you're not in compliance with the start position.....

Not sure why you'd say that.

I'm not telling anyone anything about this. I'm ASKING because I've heard mixed things out there. And I'm hearing mixed things here.

Also, since you know more about rules than most everyone on here, why not just answer the two questions in first post so we can all be better RO's and not start someone that is not in compliance with the start position? Simple yes/no answers would suffice

Well, there's an anecdote, 'I asked Troy this and he said this...' and there's a sourced quote. I'd think the real quote would be more valid than the anecdote.

If not though, maybe he changed his mind on the ruling. The quote is from last week which would make it most recent.

Edited October 13, 2015 by NickBlasta

[d_striker]

Next you'll tell me that if I write "in Box A" the competitor can do anything he wants?

I think from now on I'll just recommend that folks attend and RO class or three when they have rulebook questions.....

There's a difference between specifying a start location -- your feet need to be touching marks at this location, or you need to be standing in this box or you need to be standing inside the free fire zone and specifying the position a competitor's body needs to be in......

In any event -- good ROs won't start you if you're not in compliance with the start position.....

Not sure why you'd say that.

I'm not telling anyone anything about this. I'm ASKING because I've heard mixed things out there. And I'm hearing mixed things here.

Also, since you know more about rules than most everyone on here, why not just answer the two questions in first post so we can all be better RO's and not start someone that is not in compliance with the start position? Simple yes/no answers would suffice

Well, there's an anecdote, 'I asked Troy this and he said this...' and there's a sourced quote. I'd think the real quote would be more valid than the anecdote.

If not though, maybe he changed his mind on the ruling. The quote is from last week which would make it most recent.

Well, that post is anecdotal....I'll agree with that.

But when you've heard that one thing is the rule for years from fairly knowledgable RO's and Shooters in the sport, a recent dissenting statement made by DNROI creates some confusion.

[MarkCO]

Let's not bash each other too much on this one. I have emails to me personally from Amidon and McManus that appear to be in contradiction to what was in the article Troy wrote. We had a discussion among our section club presidents and did not come of an answer everyone agreed upon, so i sent Try an email asking for more clarification. I know he was busy with Nationals for a few weeks, so I hope it makes into his to do pile in the next few weeks.

[bikerburgess]

Next you'll tell me that if I write "in Box A" the competitor can do anything he wants?

I think from now on I'll just recommend that folks attend and RO class or three when they have rulebook questions.....

There's a difference between specifying a start location -- your feet need to be touching marks at this location, or you need to be standing in this box or you need to be standing inside the free fire zone and specifying the position a competitor's body needs to be in......

In any event -- good ROs won't start you if you're not in compliance with the start position.....

Not sure why you'd say that.

I'm not telling anyone anything about this. I'm ASKING because I've heard mixed things out there. And I'm hearing mixed things here.

Also, since you know more about rules than most everyone on here, why not just answer the two questions in first post so we can all be better RO's and not start someone that is not in compliance with the start position? Simple yes/no answers would suffice

Well, there's an anecdote, 'I asked Troy this and he said this...' and there's a sourced quote. I'd think the real quote would be more valid than the anecdote.

If not though, maybe he changed his mind on the ruling. The quote is from last week which would make it most recent.

Well, that post is anecdotal....I'll agree with that.

But when you've heard that one thing is the rule for years from fairly knowledgable RO's and Shooters in the sport, a recent dissenting statement made by DNROI creates some confusion.

The problem with that is the experienced ROs telling you what they have done for years has nothing to do with what the rule book says. The rule book did not define facing down range until the 2014 book was published. Prior to that the interpretation of facing down range was anywhere inside the 180 after it was published anyone using that interpretation was wrong. Like it or not we should all use the rules in the current book, and we should carefully read each new edition to find the little changes. if we do not like the rules as published then we should contact our ADs to get them changed.

[Nik Habicht]

Next you'll tell me that if I write "in Box A" the competitor can do anything he wants?

I think from now on I'll just recommend that folks attend and RO class or three when they have rulebook questions.....

There's a difference between specifying a start location -- your feet need to be touching marks at this location, or you need to be standing in this box or you need to be standing inside the free fire zone and specifying the position a competitor's body needs to be in......

In any event -- good ROs won't start you if you're not in compliance with the start position.....

Not sure why you'd say that.

I'm not telling anyone anything about this. I'm ASKING because I've heard mixed things out there. And I'm hearing mixed things here.

Also, since you know more about rules than most everyone on here, why not just answer the two questions in first post so we can all be better RO's and not start someone that is not in compliance with the start position? Simple yes/no answers would suffice

Most likely my answers would be some version of Yes, No to those two questions. Depending on how it was worded -- I might rule differently. If you asked me to run a stage with a vagueish start position, I'd probably discuss my intentions regarding enforcement of a consistent start position with the RM. (That shouldn't be read that it would necessarily be rigid -- stand here, put your hands here, look over here -- it could also be as simple as "Stand anywhere in the freezer zone, facing any direction you choose.....) I would want the RM on board, in case he had to rule on a protest or address a competitor's concern......

I tend to either specify exactly what I want, or to be really liberal in what I'll allow -- there's usually little room for interpretation of what I meant when I write a WSB.....

[Jadeslade]

This was asked last week at Nationals again...... It's always asked at every match. Unless you are Gumby, if your heels are touching marks how you going to face anywhere but generally where your feet are facing? What has been clarified is the uprange starts like in El Presidente, where it says facing uprange, wrists above shoulders-where guys used to look over their shoulder at targets or a wall spot. Can't do that anymore. Because your face has to be facing uprange, too. Having some common sense and knowing the rules helps ROs not worry too much about this. There is no rule where your eyes can look, it's just body position. Hands on marks is just that. If you can figure out some weird position that you think is going to help you, run it by the RO. If your hands are on the marks and you aren't violating any other rules he will say ok. But if you're the only one crouching tiger with nose in elbow-probably not going to help. No competitive advantage. The answers to your questions in the opening post are no and no. A common start position is "anywhere outside the shooting area", which can cause quite a number of different starts. Usually it will say hands at sides or wrists above shoulders, but not always. Oh- you can say, "facing downrange, hands on marks", which is in your opening statement. I am not sure if you implied that if it said hands on marks, no other thing could be specified. Another start is "seated in chair, hands on marks". Pretty straight forward. Right? Lots of stuff can be written for stage briefings, but probably won't pass the RM review.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Jadeslade

[Southpaw]

Unless you are Gumby, if your heels are touching marks how you going to face anywhere but generally where your feet are facing?

"facing down range" = face, feet, and shoulders all pointed directly towards the backstop per the glossary.

A very common start position I've seen is just "toes (or heels) on x's" and then the first target you're going to engage is visible off to the right or left. So it's advantageous to pivot your upper body towards that target and look right at it. This is very different from facing directly downrange with your shoulders and head and trying to see that first target out of the corner of your eye. So this really isn't just some hypothetical situation, it's pretty common actually.

Also, simply saying that the default start position applies if the WSB just says "toes on x's" doesn't really work as a rule clarification...what if the two x's on the ground aren't pointed downrange?

Simple solution: get rid of the "unless otherwise specified" language. If you want the competitors to start in the default start position explicitly write it into the WSB. So say "toes on x's standing in accordance with 8.2.2" or something like that. I've often see start positions written like that in WSBs to avoid confusion.

[Forrest Halley]

Start position: Facing downrange standing erect hands relaxed at sides.

What it needs to say: Stand up straight! No, not like crouching tiger hidden gunman. Feet flat on the ground shoulder width apart. Arms relaxed and hands relaxed; no muscles tensed. Nose pointed at the lateral center of the berm assuming downrange start. Chin parallel to the ground.

You can watch a guy well over six feet tall lose a foot of height getting into his relaxed shooting stance.

[Poppa Bear]

I think the only stages that should have exact start position requirements are classifiers. All other stages should only have general requirements. You can specify the location of the feet, or the hands, or sitting, or holding an object. Have just the basic position listed and allow the shooter to freestyle their stance from there. If they want to touch the spots with their hands while having their feet off to one side in an attempt to get a quicker jump on the first target then more power to them. If they want to crouch a bit as they place their toes or heels on the X’s in an attempt to get a jump on the first target then more power to them. It is a game where we are encouraged to solve the problem the fastest way we can think of and how they plan their start should be part of it.

[e5gator]

if any aspect of the start position is not specified, then nothing should be assumed expect for hands off guns. if start says anywhere outside the shooting area, then you can be 15 ft away picking your nose staring at butterflies. At least thats what the budding gamer inside of me is telling me haha

[d_striker]

Let's not bash each other too much on this one. I have emails to me personally from Amidon and McManus that appear to be in contradiction to what was in the article Troy wrote. We had a discussion among our section club presidents and did not come of an answer everyone agreed upon, so i sent Try an email asking for more clarification. I know he was busy with Nationals for a few weeks, so I hope it makes into his to do pile in the next few weeks.

Did you ever get a response from Troy on this?

[teros135]

I'm also interested in Troy's response. This seems to be one of the rules that lends itself to very specific parsing of language (judging by this thread), and it would be good to have a clear response from NROI and/or the BOD.

I do think the best approach is to word the WSB carefully (and clearly), and to have the RO demonstrate the start position if necessary. It'll still be good to have clarity on the actual rule, though, to guide this process.

[JAFO]

I agree that any uncertainty can be avoided by always writing the start position in the WSB as Standing _____, facing _______, hands ________.

The thought that the default start position for where to face and how to position the hands gets thrown out just because I mention where to stand doesn't make any sense to me.

[Nik Habicht]

I agree that any uncertainty can be avoided by always writing the start position in the WSB as Standing _____, facing _______, hands ________.

The thought that the default start position for where to face and how to position the hands gets thrown out just because I mention where to stand doesn't make any sense to me.

It does to me however, since by specifying that you force not only a location, but also a body position on the shooter. If you simply said: Start position -- in box A, then you'd have a case.....

If however you say "Standing in Box A" you've now asked for a very specific start -- the competitor may not start seated, prone, or on his knees, but needs to be standing. Since you specified a body position -- standing -- but didn't specify a direction or hand position, my interpretation would be that you don't care about those two items. Were I RMing the match, while you're working the stage as CRO, this is a discussion we'd have during set-up, and I'd edit the WSB and diagram to reflect the decisions we reached as a team, so that competitors could have clear expectations.

[JAFO]

So you'd consider the phrase "Starting at the X's" to mean facing downrange, hands relaxed at sides. But you would consider "Standing at the X's" to mean you can face any way you want and put your hands anywhere you like?

8.2.2 defines the default start position as standing:

Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides...

How am I specifying something that allows you void the default, when I'm only specifying the default to begin with?

Edited February 2, 2016 by JAFO

[Nik Habicht]

So you'd consider the phrase "Starting at the X's" to mean facing downrange, hands relaxed at sides. But you would consider "Standing at the X's" to mean you can face any way you want and put your hands anywhere you like?

8.2.2 defines the default start position as standing:

Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides...

How am I specifying something that allows you void the default, when I'm only specifying the default to begin with?

Starting at the XXs -- you've defined nothing, therefore 8.2.2 applies.

Standing at the XXs -- you've defined a start position -- the competitor must stand. Since you opted not to specify anything, such as a direction the competitor needs to face, or where you want the hands to be, it's up to the competitor to determine how to best start the stage. (generally speaking, anything other than standing up, with arms and hands relaxed is a bad idea anyway, since we usually don't practice it -- but that's another discussion...). You don't have to state that I can avoid the default, by specifying that I must stand, and remaining silent, you've taken away the opening clause of 8.2.2.

Now -- if it's a Level 2 or higher match, and I'm officiating that stage or RMing the match, that's a discussion I'll have before I run a shooter, either with the RM or with the stage staff. Why? Because generally speaking it's much easier to decide this ahead of time, and add a few words to the stage description if needed. It can also serve to give a CRO ammo in the discussion with a shooter -- No you can't do that, we haven't let anyone else do it to date, and we won't let anyone else do it going forward......

However -- I approach all stage design decisions from the perspective that options are good, and I extend that to start positions. (Bianchi is a lot of fun, but it's not freestyle.) so my start positions in practice are either highly regimented (feet touching here and palms flat on these marks; strong hand on door knob; pail in weak hand, strong hand touching hearing protection) or they're specifically very loose (Standing in FFZ A, facing any target, hands anywhere other than touching gun/mags). Bottom line -- it's not that hard to write a description that says what you want -- put the words on paper.....

Otherwise -- I'll drive a truck through your omission.....