Paying Attention To Your Competition

[Catfish]

Mods, I couldn't think of another forum to put this in, feel free to move if need be....

After shooting my first big uspsa match this past weekend at the Double Tap Championship (great match, by the way!!), I noticed that the super squad was keeping a close eye on their competition throughout the match. Not just watching, but going over scores, comparing times, points, etc.

This strikes me as completely the opposite of what one should be doing - again, I'm a huge fan of Lanny Bassham's mental management techniques. One of the key points he will make is that you should only pay attention to *your* shooting because that's the only thing that you can control. For example, if your competition is shooting on fire, then you'll wind up pushing too hard; or if your competition is slacking off the pace, you could wind up pushing too hard to finish them off, or slacking off yourself because you know you've won.

I'm curious as to see what ya'll think - I still think even after watching the big boys - that my best plan is to just shoot the best match I can, one shot at a time and not worry about the rest. But I'm interested to see if someone can talk me out of it.

Derrick

[dirtypool40]

I will be interested to see what some of the bigger dogs think on this topic.

For me, middle "M", even at local matches I watch the guys I figure are in the hunt and like to keep track of how clean or fast a stage was run. Mostly for me I think it's as a sort of barometer; If I get stomped by several seconds on a course with options, I want to know what they figured out. If I get beat on a straight up stand and shoot, or simple, "no option" field course, I try to figure out where (IE reloads, transitions etc) I got beat.

For Example: Back before I got off my ass and worked my reloads I shot a match with Jeff Gambrell. On one speed shoot he beat me by about a second. I ran him (and so could read the timer afterwards) and looked through the timer on my own run. Points were identical, transitions/ splits were indistinguishable, BUT He beat me by .20 on the draw and about .35 on each of two reloads. There's .90 right there, so it was pretty simple...... get to work.

It's sort of a report card for me.

I guess it could also be like watching the board in golf, knowing when you can lay up or HAVE to go for it if you want the win. I'm not there yet.

[Flexmoney]

Golf and our shooting are quite similar...in that, our competition is the the course.

[George]

our competition is the course.

And ourselves! ;-)

[shred]

The question everybody's been asking in the other threads is "how do you know how good you really are?". Comparing stage times/points with the rest of the super-squad is probably the best measuring stick there is. You've gotta be able to shrug off that "I'm 6 points behind, better speed up" thoughts though.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think at the top it is important. All the top shooters have an "extra" gear. Like BE writes in his book about "turning up" his vision in the shoot off's against a good shooter. A big match is like the mile in track, you don't go out to blow away the field, you pace yourself to beat the field. Shooting you shoot good points in the right amount of time and you look for places to turn up "your" game to get an advatage. So, knowing where and when to "turn up your vision" is helpfull.

If you don't have the mental ability to shoot your sights, watching the score is a silly thing to do, because you will perform way below your ability (ask me how I know this )

[Al Capizzo]

This is probably beneficial for shooters with a huge amount of experience and most important self awareness.

All the shooters at the top of the game are very self concious (in a good, constructive way) about their abilities, strong and weak points. It only makes sense for them to DECIDE if they need to really get close to the edge, takes some risks, or shoot strong but safe. It wouldn't make sense to make this decision without knowing where you are in the standings, and what you need to do to maintain that position or improve it.

Al

[j1b]

Yeah, I don't know if there's a good answer to this. Clearly if you've read any of my posts you know I am a score watcher. I like to know what's going on, who's doing what etc. etc.

Some of the big dogs are like this - but it's really hard to understand their thinking. TGO will talk to you all day about it but in truth I don't really think he cares. It's just what he talks about at a match. In my opinion he did it a lot more in club matches than he ever did at big matches - but that could be my perception only. Burner, that I'm aware of, never asked and only told when asked. I just don't think that was part of his game. If he did share, I wasn't one of the confidants. Merle, when he was shooting, shared. BE shared.

The thing that always struck me was what took place BEFORE the stage. That's where you'd think the least amount of sharing would take place because if you had "built a better mousetrap" you'd want to exploit it to create a bigger spread. I never experienced that. They all shared. They all talked out loud, explained the thought process and just worked together as a group to find the best way to shoot. I can think of very few times this wasn't the case. Doesn't mean everybody shot every stage the same way coincidentally, but it seemed as though everyone knew their options.

While some disagree, I feel it is critical to keep track of your competition. It's great to learn, it's great to know what you want to work on in dry fire that night, its a constant learning curve that enables you to become better.

It always seemed to me that the big dogs were focused on execution of the plan. Sharing enabled them to know all their options. It also revealed some of their knowledge so there was give and take. I think in each one's mind though is "its ok to discuss this because I'm going to execute this plan perfectly and at the end of the match when I've done that consistently stage in and stage out, I'll be sitting good"

At least that's what I was always thinking.

JB

[kevin c]

As nothing more than a B class club shooter, it's pretty simple for me: I watch the masters in our club matches and the "big dogs" in the majors to see what I can learn. I never pay attention to my own class anymore. It just messes me up headwise. I generally know if I am doing well for me by judging how many mistakes I make. I worry about placement after all the scores are in and it can't influence my shooting.

'Course, if I were more competitive, I might care...

[dajarrel]

As nothing more than a B class club shooter, it's pretty simple for me: .... I generally know if I am doing well for me by judging how many mistakes I make...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kevin,

I'm a low B shooter myself. I find that IF I can prevent my mistakes ie, "D's", misses, and no-shoots, then the scores usually take care of themselves. If I shoot a clean match, I place well.

My worst problem at this time in my shooting game is trying to shoot faster than my abilities allow. I shoot limited and I hate to shoot behind an Open shooter. They usually run the COF faster which makes me subconsiously think that I have to as well.

Please don't think I don't watch the big boys because I do. But it will only be to see how they might shoot a COF differently.

FWIW

dj

[Bear1142]

Having shot on my share of super squads in both pistol and 3-gun matches, I have to echo what JB said. The squads I've been on have always worked together as a group to break down a stage, in general. Sometimes the top guys will keep the last 10% of their strategy to themselves. I don't think it's a real conscious effort to not share. Most of the time it's a minor variation on a theme or a last minute change of plan. I remember one match where there was a low port and everyone was contorting to make the shot. When Robbie ran the stage he went prone, shot faster than everyone because he was more stable and got up and finished the stage. Of course he won the stage, but it kinda threw another option into play that we weren't considering. He didn't advertise he was going prone, but no one asked him either. On his walkthrough, he was contorting like everyone else. Sometimes, plans change.

As far as keeping an eye on your competition, I think its very critical to know what they're doing or how they are performing. Many people think if they pay attention to other shooters it might cause them to push too hard, maybe, maybe not. Realize that each person has strengths and weaknesses in their shooting ability. If your shooting within your ability, say 90-95%, then you have a little room to push if you need it, without going beyond your performance capabilities. Call it another gear, stepping up your game, whatever. Most people don't appreciate that the top shooters don't run at 100% all the time. They run in control at that 90-95% range. They all have a little extra *thumb rest [generic]* left if they need it. If your competition is having a good match and starting to build up a lead in points, you might start looking for stages or even parts of stages where you can step up your game and get back into the race. It's not a general, across the board, petal to the metal performance hike. You look to shoot your strengths and maintain your weaknesses. I never liked the shoot your game and let the other guy make a mistake philosophy. It makes me feel like my performance was dependant on how the other guy performed. I don't want to have the win handed to me through a mistake or a poor performance. I'll bring my "A" game and you bring yours. When I win, I want to know it was against your best game, not your average game. When I lose, I want to know it was because I got beat by a better man. It drives me to raise my game up.

Erik

[BigDave]

Along this same line, but from the opposite angle, will shooters push a little bit harder at times as to try and get a competitor to push as well and make mistakes?

[Catfish]

great thoughts guys.

to clarify, though - I'm not talking about not watching your competition shoot - I think we can all learn either what to do, or what *not* to do by solid observation.

What I'm talking about is focusing on your competitions time, including pouring over their stage points, time, etc and comparing it to yours; something I make it a habit not to do, but I clearly saw the super squad guys comparing after action notes.

thanks again, keep em coming!

[TriggerT]

While I will watch the competition, I don't really change change how I shoot from seeing what they do. I go out and try to shoot the way I know I can. If I shoot a COF and do so at 95% of my ability or better, then I am happy to let the chips fall where they may.

[Bear1142]

Dave,

Kinda like a runner setting a blistering pace to try to wear down his competition sooner? I don't know. I think most shooters would rather win without having to use that last 5%. While it's there if you need it, it also increases your chances of making a mistake because your getting closer to 100% of your ability and the problem is that our ability is not that definable. Here's an example, what's the difference on a Vice-prez between a 100 and a 101%? Is it a bad transition, a "D" hit, a miss? It's just too hard to put a well defined line on what is 100% of your ability, so I would try to stay in the 90-95% range unless I absolutely needed to step up my performance.

Erik

[AikiDale]

There is an old Japanese saying, "The frog who lives in the well does not know the ocean."

And the line from a famous English poet, "No man is an Island."

There is only so much effort one can exert without resistance. By knowing what the competition is one will rise to meet it. If one isolates oneself in a match and shoots to the best of one's ability, that one requires the self mastery of the great sages.

For the rest of us, we step it up a notch when we are being pushed. I prove this in the dojo to new students on a regular basis. I have observed in others and in myself a way to demonstrate this on the range. Engage in a shootoff. For most of us I suspect our "Best"score for a course of fire will be bettered if we shoot the same course of fire in a shootoff format.

At my shooting level I need to watch what other, better, shooters do so that I may learn basic technique from them. At the upper levels a shooter may need to watch the other competitors to provide the incentive to do more.

After one attains mastery one may need to watch others to give good counsel.

[scorch]

One of the Major things I have found out is DO NOT watch any one in a class below yours, or the guy up just before you. the worst thing that can happen to me is i am watching the guy in front of me and he screws the pooch on the stage, your sub con. tends to remember that and wants to run it the EXCATE same way.

Remeber the Super Squad all have sponsors and they all want to keep them so there might me a little we all need to finish well at the match. Sponsors don't pay for losers.

[j1b]

Catfish,

To try and answer your question more specifically I think its difficult to NOT know times run for competitors in the same squad. If somebody smokes a stage then somebody else will ask what the time was. At that point it's like trying to stop gas from burning. Like it or not generally word gets around.

You could avoid it but truthfully I don't think that matters. The trick is simply to understand what took place by X and then implement your own game plan. Afterwards you can assess and understand what you did right or wrong, understand what you need to change and then implement those changes.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I was at a nationals once where Jo Jo and Jamie Craig both shot one stage a full 2 seconds quicker than anybody else. 3 seconds faster than me. I just let it go as an exception because exceptions happen on both sides of the fence. That year I won two or three stages at that nationals and those performances could also be exceptions. Things clicked for whatever reason.

Just as when I saw Jo Jo smoke that stage and I pondered "ok - how do I get there" I'd be surprised if he didn't look at one of my stage wins and ask the same question. Understanding that with rare exception somebody is going to smoke any given stage. Sometimes its you and sometimes its somebody else. The key is to be as close as possible and be in a position to accomplish that task as often as possible. When somebody does it to you then make certain the spread is minimized. Ask any shooter in the world whether or not they'd take 5th place on every single stage in a match versus 1st place in half of them and something else the rest and I bet most would say 5th all the time. It speaks to consistent performance that wins matches.

All this to say that I do want to know times and points down not so much to understand where the competition is at as to understand better where I am at and how I need to improve.

JB

[Catfish]

excellent input. thank you JB.

Derrick

[markm]

In this the "info age", it seems everyone has a palm, and scores are kept and updated realtime as the RO is scoring the targets. I know the GM's do it, and even us lowly shooters keep up with the competition during the match. At the DT match, every couple of stages, almost everyone in our class shared scoresheets and we had the match scored before the sheets were at the stats shack.

As JB said, its more to know what they did different or did the same and how it worked out. To be honest, it also lets you know if your performance at 90-95% and consistent is cutting it. Erik hit the nail on the head for me and the guys I shoot with....

I'll bring my "A" game and you bring yours. When I win, I want to know it was against your best game, not your average game. When I lose, I want to know it was because I got beat by a better man. It drives me to raise my game up.

I don't know if it is good or bad for my performance at matches, but it is what it is, and its here to stay.

Mark

[tightloop]

good thoughts all....

[geezer-lock]

What I understand from this conversation is that you guys are saying that it is nearly impossible to win a match on a single stage but it is easy to lose a match on a single stage?

geezer

[XRe]

That's definitely a true statement

[kevin c]

I had an interesting and, for me, an unusual experience today- a miss and penalty free match. I also had only two minor "errors of execution", where I didn't read/trust my sights and put an extra hit on the paper. Finished fairly well for me. The difference? I was shooting with a bunch of fairly new shooters, instead of what I'd wanted to do, which was shoot with our club's master class and A class shooters, who were squadded elsewhere.

With the big boys, I'm tempted to do what they do, even though I know better. With people that are starting out, I don't have that temptation. AAMOF, if I am trying to mentor some of these newer shooters, I may be more interested in demonstrating my technique to them, and will therefore definitely stay in my own game at my own level.

When I watch better shooters for tips on technique, I constantly have to remind myself that what I am seeing is something to take home, and work on in dry fire or practice, not to try and apply right then and there. With practice, my technique/execution is improving, but as a B class club shooter, I can't apply what I just saw the masters doing to what I am about to shoot and reasonably expect that it will be successful. After all, if I haven't practiced shooting while moving backwards, and don't have the ability to shoot a partial from an awkward position that saves two seconds, I sure won't be able to do it on demand right after seeing it for the first time.

I'd still like to squad with the best shooters in my club. I just have to remember to shoot my own game, not theirs.

---

Oops, I see Kory started a thread w/ the same observation elsewhere...

Sorry for the duplication, but I guess it's my epiphany, not his

Kevin C.

Edited July 19, 2005 by kevin c