Ipsc Production Gun Changes

[BritinUSA]

From the IPSC Global Village web-site:

IPSC Global Village

Below is a brief summary of some important decisions made jointly and unanimously by the members of the Rules Committee and the Production Division Committee present at the recent meetings held in conjunction with the IWA Show in Germany, and these decisions have been endorsed by the IPSC Executive Council:

1. The following guns are no longer approved:

CZ P-01 and SP-01 Series

Tanfoglio Stock Custom

Sphinx 3000 Series

The reason is that the above guns all have long dust covers.

2. The following guns are now approved:

HS Produkt HS 2000 Series

Springfield Armory XD Series

An official Rule Interpretation will shortly be issued in respect of Rule 8.1.5.2. along the lines of "Striker-fired pistols are generally classified as Double Action", however please note that the H&K P7 series and the Browning HP series remain classified as Single-Action, and therefore continue not to be approved for Production Division.

3. Maximum number of rounds loaded:

Proposal rejected, so no change to current rules. Hence whatever is the capacity of the standard magazine of a gun on the approved gun list can be loaded and fired.

4. Rules on Sights:

Although I cannot yet advise the exact wording of the forthcoming change to the Sights Rules in Production Division, the decision is that any aftermarket "post & notch sights" will be permitted, regardless of whether or not they are available from the OFM. Note that Ghost Ring sights are specifically excluded.

5. Disclaimer:

Please note that the above information is given as a "bulletin", and the exact wording of official Rule Interpretations released by IPSC take precedence.

[CzechM8]

Wow...I'm sure my LEO teammates, who carry the CZ P-01 on duty and shoot it in IPSC competition will be happy to learn that the dust cover brings them a competitive advantage, in spite the 14-round magazine and the shorter sight radius.

[Carlos]

Considering the justification given (long/heavy dust cover) I do not see why the P-01 was included on the banned list since it has an alloy frame and is about the size of a Glock 19. Who was responsible for this?

[PhilTerry]

The list under discussion is the IPSC list not the USPSA list -

The USPSA Production gun list has, I believe, always excluded the P-01 and SP-01 series.

[diehli]

I'm sure TGO is gonna love this one.

[BritinUSA]

I think the whole thing is a bit of a mess; They seem to be upset over the 'new' generation of production guns that have been designed to meet the criteria of the division but are expensive and basically sporting guns.

The problem is that they are changing the rules in a World Shoot year and some people have already purchased these guns in good faith. And they are expensive, that money has now been wasted.

For the shooters who own those guns this is devastating news, for the manufacturers who have no doubt spent a ton of money developing these guns to meet this criteria, it's a kick in the teeth.

I'm afraid this does not make IPSC look very good.

[GeorgeInNePa]

The list under discussion is the IPSC list not the USPSA list -

The USPSA Production gun list has, I believe, always excluded the P-01 and SP-01 series.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct:

US Production Gun List

CZ CZ 75 (all SA/DA and DAO models except P-01 & SP-01 series), 85 (all models), 97-B, 99, 100, 101, 110

[EricW]

Here I am again in the forum I love to hate....

Now that manufacturers are producing Limited guns as "Production" guns, it's time to define the fundamental difference between the two (besides D/A and S/A):

The Magwell.

How do we do this? I have no clue. As soon as you define "add on magwell" the manufacturers will weld / cast / machine one directly into the frame.

I think we're going to have define "Production" with a box whether we'd like to or not.

[ErikW]

The CZ-97 (or B?), IIRC, has a dust cover that extends the full length of the gun. Is it IPSC Prod. legal?

[BritinUSA]

I think we're going to have define "Production" with a box whether we'd like to or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree and while we're at it maybe a price cap as well. List the cap in dollars and euros, this way if a gun company does decide to make a highly customised production gun then they can't make it for production unless the cost is low enough.

If the cost is low enough then the gun will meet the (somewhat hidden) criteria of production that it be a low-cost entry into the IPSC

[PhilTerry]

OK I'll bite and open the bidding at " Production Guns shall cost no more than $900 MSRP have an initial trigger pull of at least 5 pound, weigh no more than 40 oz. and complete with magazine shall fit the IPSC Box"

Edited to cover waktasz's weight issue and to take out the metric units

[waktasz]

Seems silly that the CZ 97 should be allowed and not the p-01. The 97 is a HUGE gun.

[GeorgeInNePa]

OK I'll bite and open the bidding at " Production Guns shall cost no more than $900 MSRP have an initial trigger pull of at least 5 pound, weigh no more than 40 oz. and complete with magazine shall fit the IPSC Box"

Edited to cover waktasz's weight issue and to take out the metric units

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"have an initial trigger pull of at least 5 pound"

Sorry, I can't agree with that. That is great for DA/SA guns at the expense of Glock/XD owners. With a DA/SA gun your first shot would be 5lbs, followed by what? 1.5lbs/2lbs or so? Then for us Glock shooters we would have EVERY shot 5 lbs.

No Sir, no thank you.

[Chriss Grube]

Well since it is production and if the manufacturer produces it what is the big deal? Seems the big bitch is "it costs X dollars". Get over it. TGO and Sevigny have kicked everybody's butt with a gun that cost 450-600 bucks. It aint the gun boys and girls. Yep we need some more dumbassed rules.

[PhilTerry]

We are debating the IPSC Production Gun list - it already has the 5 pound trigger pull rule.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Sorry Phil, I thought the post had moved on to USPSA Production.

[PhilTerry]

Actually it might not be a bad idea to take the opportunity to align the USPSA and IPSC rules for Production Class - it looks like the deletion of the CZs and the addition of the XD brings them pretty close in terms of the list of pistols.

If the trigger pull issue could be agreed then US Production shooters could go to a World Shoot fully prepared to compete under the international rules.

[davidwiz]

It seems strange that the powers that be are deeming guns that are in use by various European police and military units to be too "gamey" for Production use. I thought the whole idea of Production division was to encourage the use of "real-world" firearms.

-David

[GeorgeInNePa]

Actually it might not be a bad idea to take the opportunity to align the USPSA and IPSC rules for Production Class - it looks like the deletion of the CZs and the addition of the XD brings them pretty close in terms of the list of pistols.

If the trigger pull issue could be agreed then  US Production shooters could go to a World Shoot fully prepared to compete under the international rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure we can agree on the trigger pull specs. They drop that, we agree!

[Nik Habicht]

...or since im in strange proposal mode now --- Traditional DA designs that transition to a lighter SA pull after the first shot must comply with the 5 lb. trigger pull rule for the first shot; DAO type guns which have essentially the same pull for every shot are exempt......

Actually on second thought --- there's a few more differences between USPSA anbd IPSC rules: aftermarket parts come to mind. Internal work to improve accuracy and/or reliability and some aftermarker parts are o.k. in the U.S. but not in IPSC......

[BritinUSA]

If the objective is to use 'real world' guns then the criteria is simple:

1 shot DA ... 2lb first shot minimum weight

Magazines must be as supplied (standard) or aftermarket with the same dimensions. No more than 20 rounds in any magazine.

No machining of slide or frame

No user bolt ons (such as mag wells, trigger stops, extended mag release, safeties etc.)

Sights must be notch and post only, no electronics

All guns must weigh within 5 ounces of factory spec

All approved guns must be in use in any Police or Military organisation (regardless of calibre, so if the Police are using a 9mm Sig then that same gun is allowed in all calibres >= 9mm)

That means that any gun produced must be able to show that a Police Unit or Military Unit is using their 'real world' gun, and if they can then it is on the list. Once on the list it says there for at least 5 years, unless there is a safety problem with it.

[Chuck Anderson]

The only problem with following the model of police guns is that there is some weird crap out there being used by cops. There is an agency that issues Glock 18's to officers, several that authorize SV/STI style guns, and we've got a neighboring county that has officers carrying Desert Eagles and H&K Socoms. Trust me, cops are not the best judges for what is production suitable.

[Flexmoney]

USPSA had set the bar with the (old) red book....2,000 produced.

That is what I would suggest be put back into the rules...

- 2,000 produced

- available to the general public

The 2,000 produced goes a long way to addressing the cost issue (it has got to good enough and/or cheap enough to sell).

The "available to the general public takes care of a situation where only certain people can get the hot, new gun. (You don't want just the "Factory Team Pros" to be able to get them.)

[Bear1142]

I realize this pertains to IPSC, but if USPSA if going down this road, this has to be one of the stupidest things we could do. We are a fledgling sport at best. We always bicker about not enough industry or media support, then we go and do something like this. We specifically set up Production division to entice new shooters to our sport AND encourage manufacturers who generally are outside of the mainstream of our sport (Sig, Beretta, S&W, Ruger, etc.) to come back to our sport because there is a market and a place for your products to be used. We composed a relatively strict set of rules defining what features are allowed on a Production gun and sat back for the last three years and let it run. Now, major manufacturers are responding to it. They are forming factory shooting teams, they are supporting matches, they are providing product for the prize tables, and they introduced NEW, FACTORY PRODUCED FIREARMS, BASED ON OUR ESTABLISHED RULES!, and we turn around and prohibit them. Do any of our esteemed leaders appreciate how much money is costs to develop, prototype, manufacture, market, and actually sell and new model firearm! And we turn around and spit in their face, and what's our high moral ground reason? Because it has a long dust cover. Oh my god, the humanity of it all! This needs to stop. So what if it has a long dust cover. It's a production gun and it complies with the previously established Production rules! So the SP01 gets banned for a dust cover, but a Glock 34 with its long barrel, larger (heavier, competitive advantage, slide), extended sight radius, 3 1/2 lb. connector, and EXTENDED(!) magazine button, is legal. How do you justify that? Once again, our we find ourselves quickly lining up the front sight to shoot ourselves in the foot, yet again. How shameful.

Erik

[Vlad]

I am rarely speachless, but this mess comes close. Anything I could say about this would proabably break some forum rule but I'll take a trip down memory lane and produced this thread in which we see the PO-1 added to the list. Also there are some interesting comments you should read towards the bottom. And then there is this one in which the issue gets brought up. Given that the decission was unanimous, I have to wonder what has changed to change peoples minds.