9x45 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Freedom Ammunition? say no more, top of the line junk. Look whats inside of FM, IMT, and AmmoLoad.... See that step in the case wall? So what happens is you reload it, pop a cap, the bullet goes out, the case separates at the step, the ass end is ripped out, leaving you with a brass sleeve stuck in the barrel, and a dead gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Folks, let's not start manufacturer-bashing. Certainly not without a lot of solid data. BTW, the OP mentioned "Freedom Munitions", not "Freedom Ammunition", which are different companies. One in Texas, the other Ohio. Some data about FM - I've shot maybe 10k rounds of their 9mm, .45, & .223 in the past (both remanufactured and new) and had a FTF or two (bad primer). That's pretty much the norm for primers, including in my own reloading. A friend has shot more FM than I have and had the same success rate. Never had a case separation. That can happen with our own rounds, you know. And like I said, good customer service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 Really? Why isn't the actual shooter posting, instead of his friend. Or is "The Friend" the actual shooter? Nobody, not Nobody, goes to a Major USPSA match without knowing they can make the power floor. As already has been said, cost of flying, hotel, rental car, meals, match fees, and you can't chrono your ammo at least 3 months before you leave? And like I said before, you don't decide to go to a Major Area Match a week before, because, WELL, you can't get in anyway. TROLL THREAD! How can any shooter who has more than a dozen matches under their belt not know that? Maybe this is a new Division, Short Bus. Production Nationals.See who didn't shoot for score. There is no disclaimer on Freedom Munitions website about power factor. It says .40 S&W and .45 make major power factor and 9mm make minor. Google Freedom Munitions Power Factor and it will take you to the website. Match was in Illinois, guy livea in Florida, he flew there. Where is he going to chronic it, in the parking lot of the hotel or the match? He was not the only shooter that went sub minor, not sure who's ammo the other person was using, she us a popular well known shooter. and if they read the terms and condition which you have to check if you want to place an order they would have seen the disclaimer that it is not warranted for fitness for a particular purpose. Also how did he circumvent this little requirement by the manufacturer? Instructions for Illinois Ammunition Sales: FOID cards AND state photo ID submitted by e-mail - FOID@FreedomMunitions.com (IMPORTANT: You must enter your order number in the email subject line) It is your responsibility to follow up with Freedom Munitions to make sure we have received your information. These MUST be current, valid, & completely legible. Orders will be processed & retained until sufficient documents are submitted to and received by Freedom Munitions. Ammo can only be shipped to an address on one of those two documents. FFL Dealers must provide a copy of their FFL. FOID is only required for Illinois residents. He is a Florida Resident, bought the ammo in Florida, had it shipped to Illinois. Out of state residents do not need to have an FOID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 It was 122.6 On the website it published power factors, said it makes minor power factor. There is no asterisk, no disclaimer saying it may not make power factor in all guns. They said it makes minor power factor and it didn't. So you buy their ammo, having faith in their product to do what they say it will, and it is your fault for not checking to make sure it will chrono. I will never buy their ammo, I will also let people know that it didn't pass chrono at a major match. I'm sure lots of 9mm that makes minor in my 34 won't in my kahr pm9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 It was 122.6 On the website it published power factors, said it makes minor power factor. There is no asterisk, no disclaimer saying it may not make power factor in all guns. They said it makes minor power factor and it didn't. So you buy their ammo, having faith in their product to do what they say it will, and it is your fault for not checking to make sure it will chrono. I will never buy their ammo, I will also let people know that it didn't pass chrono at a major match. I'm sure lots of 9mm that makes minor in my 34 won't in my kahr pm9 He wasn't shooting a sub compact gun, he was shooting a full sized CZ. Since CZ dominates production class. I would expect a decent ammo company to make ammo that makes power factor in those guns. I wouldn't expect the same performance out of my G26 as I would my G34. Had he been shooting a sub compact gun, that would be a different story. Moral of the story is load and chronograph your own ammo before a match and don't believe what a company says, especially in regards to guns and ammunition since they do nothing wrong, it was the customer that was the idiot. Maybe he was an idiot to think they were good at what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walküre Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Moral of the story is load and chronograph your own ammo before a match and don't believe what a company says, especially in regards to guns and ammunition since they do nothing wrong, it was the customer that was the idiot. Maybe he was an idiot to think they were good at what they do. Did he ever attempt to, I don't know, contact the manufacturer to see what they had to say regarding this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) so why are we having this discussion in the 3rd person? Why doesn't the shooter who actually had this problem post here so we can discuss this with him? What am I missing here? I wish I had an 'agent' who would post for me so I wouldn't have to spend so much time doing all the typing on this forum myself ... Edited August 23, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 I asked the question because I was curious how it should be handled, if he wants to post here he can.Is it unreasonable to ask a question here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) The question has been asked (several times). Answers have been given (multiple times). Aren't we done here? Edited August 24, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 The question was asked one time. Several people have given their opinion. It seems some people think it is stupid to expect an ammo company to deliver ammo that does what it says it will do. If people want to discuss it, that is up to them, not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 this is the Internet, a topic is never 'done' .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Yep, it's pretty much done. We're just going to go over and over and over it - BE style! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 There is so much pent up anger here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Several people have given their opinion. It seems some people think it is stupid to expect an ammo company to deliver ammo that does what it says it will do. Apparently you are reading a thread that I didn't---people have said that the ammo company isn't liable for your "friend" not making power factor. And that your "friend" should talk to the company, as they might do something about it. And that companies who don't fulfill their claims or have good customer service eventually fail. No one has said: "it is stupid to expect an ammo company to deliver ammo that does what it says it will do" but given your reaction to the various comments thus far, you aren't actually interested in other people's responses, you just wanted people to validate your particular opinions. The company isn't liable. And yes, we'd expect that people who are going to a major match would have enough experience and forethought to make certain in advance that their equipment (all of it, including ammunition) would be in workable condition suitable for the match. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way--which doesn't change the fact that it is the shooter's responsibility to make certain their equipment meets the requirements of the competition. Too bad the guy's stuff didn't work out. Feel bad for him, since that sucks when it happens. Next time he'll check and make sure it works, I assume. The company still isn't liable. Like others, I'd still suggest the guy call the company to see if they'll do anything. But...if they choose to do nothing, that is something they can legally do also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 It seems some people think it is stupid to expect an ammo company to deliver ammo that does what it says it will do. You have completely failed to understand the responses to your question. It's not stupid to expect an ammo company to deliver ammo that does what it says it will do. It is not smar to expect to be able to just blindly trust them without verifying. It's smart to take up issues like this with mfr instead of with the interwebz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I think alt of the issues with competition off the shelf ammo is where to shoot for PF wise. Make it high like 138-140 for minor and people complain it's too hot for a competition load as they want closer to the floor. Make it closer to the floor and it may have issues in a slow barrel. It's a fine line to play. And yes he may have just had a slow barrel as I have seen some from the identical gun same barrel and one be a good bit slower faster etc. it's always good to a least check it first to get an idea how the ammo works in your gun. If you chrono at home and had a couple batches and it's all 135 pf one may figure that batch should be close and good and order it and let them ship it there and save the extra shipping. I know when I first started and shot my first match with a chrono I wasn't a club member and didn't have a place to chrono or a chrono so kinda chances it but did get some advice first as to make a pretty educated guess. I asked ken skeeters who was local what would be my best bet for ammo making PF blindly as he has probibally shot more guns and ammo over a chrono than anyone and got told WWB would be the one to get and was within the coue PF spread he told me to expect. My match was a more local one with no hotel no flying that I drove to so just chanced it. If it was a match that far with all the expenses I would check and ship myself It seems you were looking for a specific response from people and my guess is it was pay for all expenses since you said a refund wouldn't do. It is trust but variety. I know I saw a shooter go open at a match for having a glock with the Taran +0 base pads that was a hair over weight. He said it said it was production legal and it fit the box and would babe made weight if it didn't have the guide rod replaced with heavier steel and a plastic plug in the grip as it was like .2 oz over. It goes back to trust but variety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 The absolute bottom line regarding ANYTHING, is that YOU are responsible for EVERYTHING!!! In this day and age people want to pass off the responsibility to somebody else. Your friend learned a lesson, that he should have already known the answer to, in an expensive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 The question was asked one time. No, you've asked the same question multiple times. In fact, you've asked the same damned question again every time someone gave an answer that didn't square with your obvious agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 It is trust but variety. It goes back to trust but variety LOL, try "trust but verify" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 it was the customer that was the idiot. Yes Maybe he was an idiot to think they were good at what they do. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I have to agree with "Stay away with the freedom munitions." Hard evidence, I have personally seen it blow up a tavor (they did pay to fix it though), lock up a glock, go from light sounding loads in one shot to a loud as hell midday fireball out of the comp of a an ar in the next, and in 2 other ARs that that crap would stick in the chambers. Switch ammo and all the problems went away. They also did give at least one guy another 1000 rounds to replace the bad 223 he got, but the replacement stuff was blowing out primers, which is something else I have personally seen from Freedom Munitions. The dude should defiantly have checked his ammo though. Unfortunately, especially if it was Freedom Munitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 The question was asked one time. No, you've asked the same question multiple times. In fact, you've asked the same damned question again every time someone gave an answer that didn't square with your obvious agenda. bret=friend=bret! Why hide your agenda under "Friend" Take it up with FM. They didn't say what gun it made the floor with, and even if you have the same gun, so what? YOU still need to chrono it! Again, and again, why the hell would you go to a major match without checking it??? I've seen plenty of whiners in this game over the last 20 years, but nothing this weak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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