Sarge Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 RM's are the critical part of all of this in my opinion. If anybody sees something truly unsafe they can stop a shooter or quietly point it out to the actual RO if it's not an urgent issue. If you voiced your concerns to the RM and he still upheld the DQ then evidently he thought an "outsider" could make a call. Even an MD can make a safety call. It's rare but that doesn't mean an MD at a major has to walk around thinking he is forbidden from making a call if he sees an infraction. Decisions on DQ's don't get forwarded to the MD as that's the RM's domain but that doesn't mean he has to walk around with blinders on afraid to ensure the match is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 Times like this Is when I wish the video could used. The video of my run showed no 180* issues, i just wanted to see what the understanding here was. Thanks for all the facts and the opinions. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbopower18 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Any match official can call a 180 violation as it being a major violation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Turbo, anytime a violation is called a rule must be cited to the shooter. What rule are you citing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Turbo, anytime a violation is called a rule must be cited to the shooter. What rule are you citing? 10.5.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 this might be off track but let's use the 10.5.2 as a specific. This is a rule where the peanut gallery may yell STOP for their own safety. If both RO's miss it. In this case the shooter stops. But if I understand the RO's standing it might not be a DQ as the RO missed it. This is regardless of the peanut gallery being containing any RO's. (None of the RO's in attendance are assigned to this stage). Might this may even necessitate a re-shoot? I'm basing this question on the reference of this thread plus personal experience as a shooter. To surmise this thread it seems that RO's in the peanut gallery have no standing regarding match rulings. But may speak on overall group safety. [side note: My personal experience was I was close to sweeping my arm opening a door at a lvl 1 match. The RO was nice to not ding me but mentioned I came very close. During that time someone from another squad came up and proceeded with an unsolicited 'concur' of the the discussion. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Many of us are ROs, but when you compete you are a "competitor". The peanut gallery or competitors waiting to shoot a stage are not match officials. (1) Local matches do not have 3 ROs dedicated to the stage. Local matches often do not have experienced ROs and yes (from the gallery I have stopped a shooter because he/she broke the 180 or some other violation the RO on the timer did not see. (2) Level ll/III matches are different. I would not call "stop" as a shooter waiting my turn on a stage. If a violation was that flagrant, I'm sure one of the match ROs would catch it. (3) Depending on the circumstances (Level II/III), a member of the gallery calls stop and the competitor shooting the stage stops, he/she will probably get a reshoot. (If the CRO/RO does not witness the reason for the stop) Even at Area matches I have seen the RM shoot stages and heard the RM designate another CRO/RM as the Match RM while he was shooting. That tells you something..... If your shooting a stage--You are a competitor not an RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Many of us are ROs, but when you compete you are a "competitor". The peanut gallery or competitors waiting to shoot a stage are not match officials. (1) Local matches do not have 3 ROs dedicated to the stage. Local matches often do not have experienced ROs and yes (from the gallery I have stopped a shooter because he/she broke the 180 or some other violation the RO on the timer did not see. (2) Level ll/III matches are different. I would not call "stop" as a shooter waiting my turn on a stage. If a violation was that flagrant, I'm sure one of the match ROs would catch it. (3) Depending on the circumstances (Level II/III), a member of the gallery calls stop and the competitor shooting the stage stops, he/she will probably get a reshoot. (If the CRO/RO does not witness the reason for the stop) Even at Area matches I have seen the RM shoot stages and heard the RM designate another CRO/RM as the Match RM while he was shooting. That tells you something..... If your shooting a stage--You are a competitor not an RO. If someone yells stop from the gallery but are not range officers running the shooter, what is the basis of a reshoot? It was not a range officer that stopped the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 If someone yells stop from the gallery but are not range officers running the shooter, what is the basis of a reshoot? It was not a range officer that stopped the shooter. 8.6.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Not sure if that would apply since only the Range Officers are supposed to stop shooters, I have heard people running their mouth in the peanut gallery but I only listen to the R.O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Bret, interference, Chuck already got the rule. All of section 10.5(X) applies to only unsafe gun handling, there is nothing in there that allows the peanut gallery to take action. RO's are only ones who can stop the shooter, not the peanut gallery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Not sure if that would apply since only the Range Officers are supposed to stop shooters, I have heard people running their mouth in the peanut gallery but I only listen to the R.O. "In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohannBuys Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 INHO I would hate to have someone shooting off his/her mouth while I am shooting. The RO's on the stage is there to do a job. If you do not like the way they are doing their job approach a CRO or the RM with your misgivings. Consider, it might be a 270 range and you spoil a perfectly good run with a baseless call. If the RO sees it it happened, be it a "double" or a 180. If he/she did not, it did not happen. If a passerby shouted stop on one of my stages I would probably give him a piece of my mind(the little that is left) and consider awarding the meddlesome soul with a 10 point penalty to to run to the RM with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Many of us are ROs, but when you compete you are a "competitor". The peanut gallery or competitors waiting to shoot a stage are not match officials. (1) Local matches do not have 3 ROs dedicated to the stage. Local matches often do not have experienced ROs and yes (from the gallery I have stopped a shooter because he/she broke the 180 or some other violation the RO on the timer did not see. (2) Level ll/III matches are different. I would not call "stop" as a shooter waiting my turn on a stage. If a violation was that flagrant, I'm sure one of the match ROs would catch it. (3) Depending on the circumstances (Level II/III), a member of the gallery calls stop and the competitor shooting the stage stops, he/she will probably get a reshoot. (If the CRO/RO does not witness the reason for the stop) Even at Area matches I have seen the RM shoot stages and heard the RM designate another CRO/RM as the Match RM while he was shooting. That tells you something..... If your shooting a stage--You are a competitor not an RO. If someone yells stop from the gallery but are not range officers running the shooter, what is the basis of a reshoot? It was not a range officer that stopped the shooter. and how would you know it was not an RO? Edited January 25, 2016 by lcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohannBuys Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 If I might add: if a dangerous situation exists that the RO is clearly unaware of shout stop to your hearts content, but be ready to explain yourself to the RO, CRO, RM as well as everyone and his brother. For your sake I hope it is something like a child that has wondered onto the range and not a "broken" 180 from where you stood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Not sure if that would apply since only the Range Officers are supposed to stop shooters, I have heard people running their mouth in the peanut gallery but I only listen to the R.O."In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire..." What is other external influences? Rain, wind blowing, someone in the gallery making noise? Should it be like golf where the gallery has to be quiet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Honestly, who among us wouldn't automatically stop if someone behind you yelled "STOP!", even if it wasn't the timer RO right behind you? It's an ingrained response for anyone who has been doing this for a while. I agree that it's not something the squad or observers should do for anything but extreme circumstances like someone downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 If I might add: if a dangerous situation exists that the RO is clearly unaware of shout stop to your hearts content, but be ready to explain yourself to the RO, CRO, RM as well as everyone and his brother. For your sake I hope it is something like a child that has wondered onto the range and not a "broken" 180 from where you stood. How bad does a 180 have to be before you'd yell stop from the peanut gallery if the RO missed it? Are you saying you'd never do that under any circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Bret, sounds to me like you don't have a great deal of experience under your belt in this game. Might be better to listen to the grey beards instead of arguing with them. They probably have been in the game longer than you are years of age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 How bad does a 180 have to be before you'd yell stop from the peanut gallery if the RO missed it? Are you saying you'd never do that under any circumstances? You're right. Ideally, between the timer RO and the scorekeeper there shouldn't be one so bad that the crowd has to call it, but it can happen. But because the RO didn't see it, he can't DQ the shooter, only offer a reshoot due to external influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Bret, sounds to me like you don't have a great deal of experience under your belt in this game. Might be better to listen to the grey beards instead of arguing with them. They probably have been in the game longer than you are years of age. How hard is it to read the rules, follow them and expect everyone to do the same,even the Grey beards? Just because someone has been doing something a long time doesn't mean they are doing it right. Not arguing, it's called having a discussion, if you think it is arguing, stay out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 How bad does a 180 have to be before you'd yell stop from the peanut gallery if the RO missed it? Are you saying you'd never do that under any circumstances?You're right. Ideally, between the timer RO and the scorekeeper there shouldn't be one so bad that the crowd has to call it, but it can happen. But because the RO didn't see it, he can't DQ the shooter, only offer a reshoot due to external influence. Some R.O.'s don't like to enforce the rules, so they let them slide, this is dangerous and doesn't do anyone any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 How bad does a 180 have to be before you'd yell stop from the peanut gallery if the RO missed it? Are you saying you'd never do that under any circumstances?You're right. Ideally, between the timer RO and the scorekeeper there shouldn't be one so bad that the crowd has to call it, but it can happen. But because the RO didn't see it, he can't DQ the shooter, only offer a reshoot due to external influence. Some R.O.'s don't like to enforce the rules, so they let them slide, this is dangerous and doesn't do anyone any good. What would be letting the rules slide in that scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 How bad does a 180 have to be before you'd yell stop from the peanut gallery if the RO missed it? Are you saying you'd never do that under any circumstances?You're right. Ideally, between the timer RO and the scorekeeper there shouldn't be one so bad that the crowd has to call it, but it can happen. But because the RO didn't see it, he can't DQ the shooter, only offer a reshoot due to external influence.Some R.O.'s don't like to enforce the rules, so they let them slide, this is dangerous and doesn't do anyone any good.What would be letting the rules slide in that scenario? If the R.O. on the timer and the secondary R.O. is paying attention and a shooter broke 180 so bad that the gallery had to call it, 1. The R.O. isn't paying attention or 2. Letting the guy slide. Neither scenario is good and both are dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Not sure if that would apply since only the Range Officers are supposed to stop shooters, I have heard people running their mouth in the peanut gallery but I only listen to the R.O."In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire..." What is other external influences? Rain, wind blowing, someone in the gallery making noise? Should it be like golf where the gallery has to be quiet? I've seen wind be an external influence. Excess noise from the peanut gallery that sounded like 'stop' would also qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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