Who makes the call?

[a matt]

RO's are working the stage at level 2 match. Can another RO not assigned to the Stage makes a call on a stage they are not assigned to be working? Like they went to use the bathroom and just walked by. Also can the MD floating around helping with everything like he should lol, make a 180 call?

What section in the rules is the covered? Thank you for the help.

Edited August 17, 2015 by a matt

[Sarge]

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,

“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially

appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity

at the match.

From the glossary:

Range Official ..................A person who is officially serving at a match in the

capacity of a Range Officer.

As an MD I have called stop on obvious 180's when an RO either didn't see it, was so inexperienced he didn't recognize something. But I tend to not usurp my RO's authorities when they work my matches.

An example was a shooter actually turning the wrong way on a lateral course of fire. I mean he did a 360 rotation with gun in hand and for some unknown reason the RO said nothing. I blasted stop from 25 yards away.

And I was once working a sectional when I was walking from my truck to the stats shack and a guy in a safe area ejected a round from his gun in a safe area. Of course I took him to the RM and explained what happened.

All assigned RO's are fully capable of making calls.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sarge

[Steve RA]

I think he was referring to ROs working the match.

[Sarge]

I think he was referring to ROs working the match.

So was I, no?

[ChuckS]

. Also can the MD floating around helping with everything like he should lol, make a 180 call?

.

Nope. See 7.1.6 and 7.1.7

[Sarge]

. Also can the MD floating around helping with everything like he should lol, make a 180 call?

.

Nope. See 7.1.6 and 7.1.7

Those are indeed applicable in a major match where there is an RM. But when I MD my local matches my name is on the blame block in bold letters. I would be ultimately responsible if something bad happened so I have absolutely no problem stepping in if warranted and making a call. NONE.

[ChuckS]

. Also can the MD floating around helping with everything like he should lol, make a 180 call?

.

Nope. See 7.1.6 and 7.1.7

Those are indeed applicable in a major match where there is an RM. But when I MD my local matches my name is on the blame block in bold letters. I would be ultimately responsible if something bad happened so I have absolutely no problem stepping in if warranted and making a call. NONE.

I forgot to mention 7.3.1 ... Only the RM makes rule calls...

[motosapiens]

. Also can the MD floating around helping with everything like he should lol, make a 180 call?

.

Nope. See 7.1.6 and 7.1.7

Those are indeed applicable in a major match where there is an RM. But when I MD my local matches my name is on the blame block in bold letters. I would be ultimately responsible if something bad happened so I have absolutely no problem stepping in if warranted and making a call. NONE.

I know it's more fun for you to talk about you (and I agree with you in this instance), but the OP asked about a level II match, which has an RM.

IMHO, the MD can't call jack-shiznit if he's not also the RM.

Imnho, A passing RO can't/shouldn't call jack-shiznit during the COF of another stage as he's walking by. He can/should call routine non-COF-related safety violations, wherever they occur (handling a gun outside safe area, ammo in a safe area, etc....)

[Sarge]

. Also can the MD floating around helping with everything like he should lol, make a 180 call?

.

Nope. See 7.1.6 and 7.1.7

Those are indeed applicable in a major match where there is an RM. But when I MD my local matches my name is on the blame block in bold letters. I would be ultimately responsible if something bad happened so I have absolutely no problem stepping in if warranted and making a call. NONE.

I know it's more fun for you to talk about you (and I agree with you in this instance), but the OP asked about a level II match, which has an RM.

IMHO, the MD can't call jack-shiznit if he's not also the RM.

Imnho, A passing RO can't/shouldn't call jack-shiznit during the COF of another stage as he's walking by. He can/should call routine non-COF-related safety violations, wherever they occur (handling a gun outside safe area, ammo in a safe area, etc....)

Yeah, I guess I missed that in my eagerness to thump my chest! RM and other assigned RO's of the match can make calls though. MD should probably be too busy getting the shitters cleaned out to stand around and make calls anyway.

[RJH]

Is there a rule that says a passing RO can't make a 180 or other safety call as he is walking by? I don't remember seeing it, but it is in the book. What about a guy lighting one off over a berm, while reloading , but the Stage Ro doesn't see it because of positioning, but I see it clearly, while sipping my water when my stage is empty?

[Sarge]

Is there a rule that says a passing RO can't make a 180 or other safety call as he is walking by? I don't remember seeing it, but it is in the book. What about a guy lighting one off over a berm, while reloading , but the Stage Ro doesn't see it because of positioning, but I see it clearly, while sipping my water when my stage is empty?

There is only a rule that says assigned RO's are RO's for the match. Not just their small piece of the pie.

[motosapiens]

Is there a rule that says a passing RO can't make a 180 or other safety call as he is walking by? I don't remember seeing it, but it is in the book. What about a guy lighting one off over a berm, while reloading , but the Stage Ro doesn't see it because of positioning, but I see it clearly, while sipping my water when my stage is empty?

I don't think there's any rule that says that *can't* happen, but if someone tried to call something on a stage I was running, I would politely ask them to get bent, and let the RM sort it out. I personally think it would be bad form to call something during the COF on a stage I was just casually observing and not officially working.

If I were casually observing a stage on my way back from the bathroom, and I happened to see something that the stage staff missed, I would direct my comments discreetly to the stage staff, or the RM, so that corrective action can be taken, but it's hard to imagine many situations where a casual observer is going to have a better view of the stage than the 2 (or 3) RO's assigned to the stage. You would have to be really dang sure of what you saw, and pretty much willing to call out the other RO's as being incompetent.

FWIW, I've had peanut gallery comments result in a warning from an RO (thought I "probably" broke the 180 but wasn't in position to see it), but between my own knowledge, and other smart observers, and looking at the video afterwards, it was totally clear that the peanut-gallery commenter (a certified RO) was 100% wrong, and the stage RO was imho wrong to pay attention to it.

I'm a strong believer in giving the stage staff control and letting meddlers meddle in something else.

[RJH]

That was what I thought, Sarge. And Moto, I have worked a stage where a blatant 180 violation could be easily missed depending on RO positioning. I would say it was poor stage design. If the scorekeeping RO was slightly out of position it could be missed, and all the 180 calls that were made were of the 270 variety. If the scorekeeping RO, wasn't in exactly the right spot and another RO happened to walk by and see the violation, I would actually be glad it was caught, not offended that someone stepped on my "turf" so to speak. As an RO we need to realize we are not infallible and take any help we receive from other match officials happily, not with a chip on our shoulder. And if I ever stop a shooter on another persons stage, where the RO was in a bad position, I wouldn't think that the RO was not good at his job, but would probably figure that they were in a bad position, it is a dynamic sport and no matter how much we try we cant see everything all the time.

Edited August 18, 2015 by RJH

[Sarge]

Is there a rule that says a passing RO can't make a 180 or other safety call as he is walking by? I don't remember seeing it, but it is in the book. What about a guy lighting one off over a berm, while reloading , but the Stage Ro doesn't see it because of positioning, but I see it clearly, while sipping my water when my stage is empty?

I don't think there's any rule that says that *can't* happen, but if someone tried to call something on a stage I was running, I would politely ask them to get bent, and let the RM sort it out. I personally think it would be bad form to call something during the COF on a stage I was just casually observing and not officially working.

If I were casually observing a stage on my way back from the bathroom, and I happened to see something that the stage staff missed, I would direct my comments discreetly to the stage staff, or the RM, so that corrective action can be taken, but it's hard to imagine many situations where a casual observer is going to have a better view of the stage than the 2 (or 3) RO's assigned to the stage. You would have to be really dang sure of what you saw, and pretty much willing to call out the other RO's as being incompetent.

FWIW, I've had peanut gallery comments result in a warning from an RO (thought I "probably" broke the 180 but wasn't in position to see it), but between my own knowledge, and other smart observers, and looking at the video afterwards, it was totally clear that the peanut-gallery commenter (a certified RO) was 100% wrong, and the stage RO was imho wrong to pay attention to it.

I'm a strong believer in giving the stage staff control and letting meddlers meddle in something else.

I agree. Really I do! While I would call stop locally I would not do that in a larger match since it could bring discredit to the RO who may have missed the call. I would be more inclined to make a call on something unrelated to the actual shooter on the COF. Such as a dropped gun in the peanut gallery or some other worthy violation. And I would not call stop unless it was a true emergency because that will cause the shooter to stop.

That was what I thought, Sarge. And Moto, I have worked a stage where a blatant 180 violation could be easily missed depending on RO positioning. I would say it was poor stage design. If the scorekeeping RO was slightly out of position it could be missed, and all the 180 calls that were made were of the 270 variety. If the scorekeeping RO, wasn't in exactly the right spot and another RO happened to walk by and see the violation, I would actually be glad it was caught, not offended that someone stepped on my "turf" so to speak. As an RO we need to realize we are not infallible and take any help we receive from other match officials happily, not with a chip on our shoulder. And if I ever stop a shooter on another persons stage, where the RO was in a bad position, I wouldn't think that the RO was not good at his job, but would probably figure that they were in a bad position, it is a dynamic sport and no matter how much we try we cant see everything all the time.

To add to this conversation. I actually think(only guessing really)if I came up to you after a run and said, "that guy clearly broke the 180", the first thing the RM will do when he shows up is ask you if you saw it. Depending on the stage layout, blind spots etc he may or may not uphold my call and stay with the stage RO's non call. There would be a lot of variables there. On a COF where it's pretty wide open I just don't think a passerby RO would have as good a view as the stage RO. But like was mentioned, if the shooter ran around a wall and "bang" you may assume he shot at a target and another RO may have clearly seen an AD situation. There are a lot of ways this could end up.

[RJH]

Think about a reload where the shooter is moving laterally, and gets his body between the gun and other ROs, so that their view of the gun is blocked, you however happen to be standing on the other side of the stage where you have a clear view of the gun pointed directly up-range, you're really not going to make that call because of hurting feelings? I always thought safety was job one, I guess I didn't see the rule with the hurt feelings exception. I am not in any way talking about maybe 180s here, I am talking about looking down the barrel, no question 180s.

[Mark R]

When in doubt and you clearly see a SAFETY violation, yell STOP, and call the RM. Either a DQ or re-shoot based on RM decision. No room or leeway for safety violations.

[motosapiens]

Think about a reload where the shooter is moving laterally, and gets his body between the gun and other ROs, so that their view of the gun is blocked, you however happen to be standing on the other side of the stage where you have a clear view of the gun pointed directly up-range, you're really not going to make that call because of hurting feelings?

I'm just having a hard time imagining it in real life. Generally the peanut gallery and other shooters are much further back, and on the stages I run there are RO's on each side. There shouldn't be anyone else with a better view of it than the two primary RO's. We try to specifically coordinate our movements to make sure that we can see everything.

If you are CERTAIN you saw a clear safety violation, then call it. I just haven't personally seen alot of situations where someone in the background could be certain but the stage RO couldn't..... and I've seen several situations where the peanut gallery *thought* they saw something and was just plain wrong.

[RJH]

Just curious Moto, and I am not being a smarta** but when you say 2 primary ROs, does that include the scorekeeper? All the level 2 matches I have worked there were 2 ROs per stage, the primary, running the shooter and the secondary, helping watch and doing the scorekeeping. Some of the stages I have worked would have greatly benefitted from a third RO. These are the stages that I remember when this "who makes the call" question came up.

[motosapiens]

Just curious Moto, and I am not being a smarta** but when you say 2 primary ROs, does that include the scorekeeper? All the level 2 matches I have worked there were 2 ROs per stage, the primary, running the shooter and the secondary, helping watch and doing the scorekeeping. Some of the stages I have worked would have greatly benefitted from a third RO. These are the stages that I remember when this "who makes the call" question came up.

Yes that does include the scorekeeper.

At all the Level 3 matches I have worked (3 nationals, 2 area matches) we had at least 3 RO's. Normally, timer RO is to the shooter's right, scorekeeper is over on the left side, and the 3rd RO if we had one was on the right side, or anywhere else we needed an extra pair of eyes. These were all full length field courses, so we tasked the 3rd RO with clearing the stage as well.

At section matches, I've worked smaller crews (sometimes I'm the ONLY certified RO for a stage), but I haven't had to work as complicated a stage at those matches.

At any of those matches, when I've gone to the bathroom or to lunch, I haven't really had time to stop and watch other stages and get up close enough to the action to feel like I could realistically make a call that requires 100% certainty.

[waktasz]

Think about a reload where the shooter is moving laterally, and gets his body between the gun and other ROs, so that their view of the gun is blocked, you however happen to be standing on the other side of the stage where you have a clear view of the gun pointed directly up-range, you're really not going to make that call because of hurting feelings?

I'm just having a hard time imagining it in real life. Generally the peanut gallery and other shooters are much further back, and on the stages I run there are RO's on each side. There shouldn't be anyone else with a better view of it than the two primary RO's. We try to specifically coordinate our movements to make sure that we can see everything.

If you are CERTAIN you saw a clear safety violation, then call it. I just haven't personally seen alot of situations where someone in the background could be certain but the stage RO couldn't..... and I've seen several situations where the peanut gallery *thought* they saw something and was just plain wrong.

I don't, because I saw it happen and applied the DQ myself because I was looking down the barrel of a guy's gun in exactly the situation described above. In a level 2 match there would be an RO stationed on the bay to have caught it, but since it was a local match, and the RO was over the shooter's shoulder and could not see the infraction I made the call myself. There were about 4 witnesses that were standing with me as well that all got to see this guy's muzzle.

Edited August 18, 2015 by waktasz

[motosapiens]

I don't, because I saw it happen and applied the DQ myself because I was looking down the barrel of a guy's gun in exactly the situation described above. In a level 2 match there would be an RO stationed on the bay to have caught it, but since it was a local match, and the RO was over the shooter's shoulder and could not see the infraction I made the call myself. There were about 4 witnesses that were standing with me as well that all got to see this guy's muzzle.

sounds like you are also talking about a local match, not a level II. It makes alot more sense in that context. Fewer RO's, more people milling around close to the shooting area, usually floating RO's so much more likely for the RO to be in the wrong place to see, etc...

Sounds like we are all in agreement.

[a matt]

What happened to me was an Area match. As a matter of fact both times I witnessed this happened, it was at Area matches.

[motosapiens]

What happened to me was an Area match. As a matter of fact both times I witnessed this happened, it was at Area matches.

Was it a bad call? did you argue it? Are you trying to get out of it on a technicality?

I personally haven't seen this happen yet where someone not working the stage has actually called stop during the COF.

[a matt]

I tried to discuss it but I found myself loosing my cool, so I decided to accept it so I didn't do something that would make me look like an jackass. But I have wonder ever since. I have read the rule book several times and still can find the answer to who can call Stop on a stage at an Area match. Can the MD call stop?

[JAFO]

Although this only states that range officials may call stop, if there is a major safety violation or dangerous situation, I think anyone can (and should) call stop. Whether that results in a DQ or just a reshoot depends on what one of the range officials saw.

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

This defines Range Officials:

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”, “Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. Such persons should therefore not participate in the match wearing garments bearing Range Official insignia.

So an RO in the peanut gallery acting as a competitor would not have the ability to issue a DQ, but one serving as an RO for the match could.

This states that DQs may be appealed, but that the description of the event as described by the match official may not be challenged:

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infrac-tion will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circum-stances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the con-struction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

However, if you don't agree with the call from the RO, you can ask the CRO or RM to rule on it:

11.1.3 Appeals – the Range Officer makes decisions initially. If the appellant disagrees with a decision, the Chief Range Officer for the stage or area in question should be asked to rule. If a disagreement still exists, the Range Master must be asked to rule.

Depending on the RO's description of what he saw from where he saw it, it's possible the RM would not uphold the call.

Edited August 18, 2015 by JAFO