obsessiveshooter Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 When I'm shooting a hoser stage with lots of close targets, I find myself not using my sights at all. It just happens that way, it's not something I've practiced. I'm getting the hits I need, and the stages where this happen tend to be some of my best stages as far as HF. But, I'm just a high C/low B shooter and I'm wondering if I'm picking up a bad habit. Do you better shooters out there actually see you front sight on close targets, like 6 feet away, or are you looking over the pistol at the target (like I have been doing)? If you are doing this, is point shooting something you practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) I do the same thing. 5 yards or closer I just naturally started point shooting and they indeed are my fastest stages. I do not practice it but it just feels so natural. For some reason I almost always get alphas. I spoke to several other shooters including a couple of GM's and they confided to doing the same thing. Edited June 25, 2015 by Zoomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 if you are getting the hits you need that's fine. it's all about finding out (for your given current eyesight and skill level) what is an 'acceptable' sight picture or sight patience for each type of target. on a 20 yard open target you might for instance need to see the front sight centered in the notch. on a 30 yard partial you may need to see if perfectly crisply AND wait for it to settle before releasing the shot. on a 5 yard open target it may be as basic has seeing part of the gun cover part of the brown. as your skills develop the 'acceptable' sight picture you need for each type of target will change. so you need to push things a bit in practice to see what balance you can acheive. but yes, I believe most shooters shooting at 5 yard open targets are mainly target focussed and just 'aware of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I do it but, not at the distances being discussed. My limit is around 3 yards, which results in alphas 95% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "Always strive to see what you need in the way of an acceptable sight picture to get your hits". At close targets (3-5 yards), that "acceptable sight picture" may be my fist holding the gun and covering up some of the brown target, haha. Its obviously easier to go faster on close targets, but remember everyone will be going fast so make sure you get the As too. Don't leave easy points on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennJeep1618 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I do basically the same thing. When I first started competing, I found myself thinking after a stage, "I don't remember seeing my sights for those targets..." Now, I just go with it and like you mentioned, my hits are almost always there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 while i agree in general with what's been said, i can tell you that anything less than 100% As on targets 5 yds and in is not good and you should be adjusting what your acceptable sight picture definition is until you can guarentee 100% As becuase that's what the good shooters are doing. it's the same for shooting while moving .... if you can't guarentee 2 As or first knock down on steel then shooting that target while moving is not putting yourself on the path of shooting greatness .... remember, the goal is to shoot 2 As as fast as you can, NOT, go as fast as you can and hope you can shoot 2 As .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Even though I could point shoot fairly accurately out to about 15 yards, for real close targets, I found I didn't tense up - to the point of locking up on the trigger - If I stayed right on the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 A friend has started a new training company and is stressing front sight with a special target. Practice is done from 5 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Great advice here- I'm glad to know I don't need to unlearn something while I'm trying to learn so many other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redial Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I worked for a PD (that got in a LOT of shootings) that taught point shooting from the first day. As a Bullseye shooter, I was amazed that I could call my shots despite not seeing the sights. As much as the traditionalist in me wanted to hate it, it works! One mantra that helped me is to "touch the target" with the muzzle. It may work for you too. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 A friend has started a new training company and is stressing front sight with a special target. Practice is done from 5 yards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Pj1Js2G-Y&feature=share I guess you could make that target with masking tape and a marker, looks challenging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 while i agree in general with what's been said, i can tell you that anything less than 100% As on targets 5 yds and in is not good and you should be adjusting what your acceptable sight picture definition is until you can guarentee 100% As becuase that's what the good shooters are doing. it's the same for shooting while moving .... if you can't guarentee 2 As or first knock down on steel then shooting that target while moving is not putting yourself on the path of shooting greatness .... remember, the goal is to shoot 2 As as fast as you can, NOT, go as fast as you can and hope you can shoot 2 As .... I mostly agree with what you said about giving up points on close targets, however I disagree somewhat in saying that you need 100% A's. This game leans on speed, if you can trade a few (notice I said a FEW) C's for a better time, then do it on full hoser type stages. Winning and losing on hoser, 13 HF type stages comes down to entry and exits, and shooting as you come into each port and shooting while you leave as well. If you can trade A's for seconds, I think that's a wise investment. Same goes for shooting on the move (because that's basically what I'm talking about anyway). On that type of hoser stage everyone is going to have mostly Alphas, and have mostly fast times. Since everyone has mostly alphas, you are more likely to win the stage by getting as many alphas, faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 this may work at locals but go to a level II or III match and see how many of the top shooters don' t have 100% As on close targets ... they are free points which you can't afford to give up ... ask BoB V how important 2 pts are? The difference between one A & one C in Production ..... besides, this isn't my idea, it' what Ben Stoeger told me the last time I trained with him .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 it's the same for shooting while moving .... if you can't guarentee 2 As or first knock down on steel then shooting that target while moving is not putting yourself on the path of shooting greatness .... the math is a bit more complicated than that for shooting while moving. It boils down to what gives you the best HF, and depending on how much time you can save (and whether you are shooting major or minor) a few charlies may be perfectly acceptable. It is true however that there is no excuse for not getting all A's on 0-5 yard-ish targets. You can't save enough time by not looking at your sights to make up for the lost points of more than an occasional charlie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 On that type of hoser stage everyone is going to have mostly Alphas, and have mostly fast times. Since everyone has mostly alphas, you are more likely to win the stage by getting as many alphas, faster. Another way to look at it is that everyone good is going to run the stage in a similar time. You are more likely to win by getting more alphas in that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 On that type of hoser stage everyone is going to have mostly Alphas, and have mostly fast times. Since everyone has mostly alphas, you are more likely to win the stage by getting as many alphas, faster. Another way to look at it is that everyone good is going to run the stage in a similar time. You are more likely to win by getting more alphas in that time. Ah, but that's what I'm saying. If you can find the plan that cuts a corner a bit closer, and gets you into a shooting position (or skips a position?) you can make up enough time for those Charlies to be okay. But I shoot major, so maybe I have a different perception of C's then production shooters like you two... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 But I shoot major, so maybe I have a different perception of C's then production shooters like you two... yes, that's a key point. Nimitz and I have both drunk from the stoeger fountain as regards minor, but I also shoot major in limited and SS, and it changes the equation significantly. I think shooting major you *can* make up for charlies time-wise, but you still have to nail all the close targets, because you know all the good shooters will. as the targets get further out, charlies get more acceptable, especially if you can hit them while moving. At least that's what I think... but I'm a long way from being at the top still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARD72977 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 How much time can you save by not seeing your front sight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Two things: One, there's a difference between not seeing your sights and not REMEMBERING seeing your sights. I've done some pretty crazy stuff without remembering a single sight picture afterwards. Two, most of the work done on run and gun speed intensive targets is done with the body, whether that's standing on your tippie-toes and hunching your shoulders to bring the gun up and over a high wall, or using your hips to drive between targets in a wide transition, whereas with a 15 yard partial you'll be consciously steering the gun to the A zone with the sights. In the former the sights are mostly there as verification, because the guys at the top will be shooting AS they see them (before being generally bad points wise and after being generally bad speed wise). Now, I've hosed 2 charlies on dumb, easy targets before. I just did today. It's not exactly the most pressing concern I have but it's something on the list. You have to prioritize where you spend your practice time - so what you have to do is scale the results you're getting in a given area of the sport with the effort you're going to put into fixing it. As long as you're not dropping deltas or mikes I wouldn't worry about it too much yet. Too many charlies though and yes, you're just giving away points, but working on it before other areas might not give you the best ROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 GARD72977, I'd say you can save a lot of time. I recently shot a match and Ron Avery was on my squad. I asked him to scrutinize my stage, and after I shot it one of the questions he asked me was "What did you see?". since it was a close-target hoser stage, My reply was honestly "not much of my front sight". He acknowledged that it does seem to work on stages like that, but he said that that habit would "become my nemesis", which I took to mean that one day, at a higher level of performance, point shooting was going to start holding me back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I find that I do this on really close arrays, or targets that you would normally blow past, because hitting the target point shooting is easy and stopping to get a good sight picture will actually cost you time. I present the gun so that it's a line out from my arms to the A-zone, and I don't think I've ever miked doing that. On a far target I wouldn't point shoot though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshuberg Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 DonovanM is right. If you train a lot, and the act of shooting and using your sights is instinctive, there is a good chance that you are actually seeing your front sight, but that because the target was so close your mind decided the sight picture wasn't important enough to remember it. Not remembering seeing your sights, or having your subconscious mind observe your sights without being consciously aware of it is perfectly fine. If you're curious if this is what's happening, either remove your front sight temporarily, or obscure both sights with a big piece of electrical tape that hides them from view. If you shoot better when the sights are visible, you're most likely seeing them and using them without being consciously aware of it. If you shoot the same, you might just be point shooting. If you are using your front sights subconsciously without remembering it, that's actually a very good thing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 A couple of Thursday night matches ago, we had targets just in front of the table we started from, only a couple of feet beyond the end of everyone's muzzle. After a few guys shot that stage, we decided to tape only the holes outside of the A's. I had the honor of being the first guy to have part of one bullet hole outside of the A. I got credit for all A's but that was a reminder not to be sloppy even on extreme close-up targets. My little wisecrack was that I'll have to do more drills at the two-foot distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I if you have 10 targets at 3 yards, and 4 at 20,are you going to try for alphas on the 20yd targets? Does it matter to your stage score if you drop two č's on the far targets vs the close ones? The close in points are the easiest to get. You might as well get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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