pmt Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I see how the most common answer is "go talk to the MD", which is all cute, fine and dandy but it is not always possible. It's always possible if there is a safety issue You basically can't run to the MD to snitch about someone being mean because he does not want to give the timer to someone who knows what he's doing. It is always an option to talk to the MD about safety issues. If someone doesn't know what they're doing....help them. Some clubs squad, others don't. In the latter case, it can be a total mess. If you're referring to the monthly open squad L1's at RSSC, I think they work quite well and are not a total mess. In this case, when a new RO is needed to run the stage, a quick visual clue would definitely be very helpful. "Sorry, you do not seem to know what you are doing and I'm going to rip off that timer from your hand" does not always work when the idiot is a muscled up cop who thinks he's directing traffic and, for some reason, you do not feel like pissing off a cop. If someone is new on the clock you should try to help them, not rip it from their hands. Do you have a problem with cops? The Unplanned Targets video was a serious wake up call. It seems to have happened at a Level 2 or 3 match. It is even more likely to happen at a Level 1 match. Whatever can be done to prevent this from happening at any level should be done. Sounds like you had a bad day at the match, people weren't performing RO duties to your standards and you're here venting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 You basically can't run to the MD to snitch about someone being mean because he does not want to give the timer to someone who knows what he's doing. Eh? First of all it isn't snitching. What the hell does that even mean, this isn't a play ground or a prison. If you see a safety violation and a squad who are playing by their own rules I assure you the MD wants and needs to know about it. He doesn't want anyone shot on his watch. In fact the ONE AND ONLY correct answer to you problem was to bring it to the MDs attention. Wearing scarlet letters or some such is irrelevant. If he didn't care about your issue, then yes as waktasz said, GTFO and call in the presumed adults in the section and USPSA area, because they also don't want to see anyone shot on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicVerAZ Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Sounds like you had a bad day at the match, people weren't performing RO duties to your standards and you're here venting. Or maybe... I am truly worried about safety, how about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) You basically can't run to the MD to snitch about someone being mean because he does not want to give the timer to someone who knows what he's doing. Eh? First of all it isn't snitching. What the hell does that even mean, this isn't a play ground or a prison. If you see a safety violation and a squad who are playing by their own rules I assure you the MD wants and needs to know about it. He doesn't want anyone shot on his watch. In fact the ONE AND ONLY correct answer to you problem was to bring it to the MDs attention. Wearing scarlet letters or some such is irrelevant. If he didn't care about your issue, then yes as waktasz said, GTFO and call in the presumed adults in the section and USPSA area, because they also don't want to see anyone shot on the range. +1, that's what the MD is for. This is exactly the kind of problem he should be dealing with. I don't care if the current President of USPSA is on your squad .... if there is a safety issue ... which it certainly sounds like there was, then th MD needs to be called in to handle it ... Edited June 12, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Or maybe... I am truly worried about safety, how about that? Did you tell the match director? He and he alone can fix these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Sounds like you had a bad day at the match, people weren't performing RO duties to your standards and you're here venting. Or maybe... I am truly worried about safety, how about that? IF that were true, you would have told the MD of your concerns long before you came here to vent. How about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If it was at either of the two main ranges we shoot at here let the MDs know. Both take this seriously and it is the way to address the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Sounds like you had a bad day at the match, people weren't performing RO duties to your standards and you're here venting. Or maybe... I am truly worried about safety, how about that? IF that were true, you would have told the MD of your concerns long before you came here to vent. How about that? Keep it civil. How about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhawk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Beat feet to the MD or RM. Also step up and call any safety issue - especially a 180 break - and stop the shooter when it happens. You do not have to be holding the timer to call out this range command... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I'm just surprised someone wanted to use the timer! hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I do know that "Muzzle!" is not a USPSA call but an IDPA call. I mean as in "they did not even say anything during or after". As for not shooting there or changing squad, it is not able to clearly identify the sheriff in town would certainly help. Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. I'm glad you brought this up. I agree with Mark, there is a process for this so use it. I hope you can get this worked out soon but don't wait until it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. Can you point me to that in the rule book. I have heard people say that before but I looked and did not find it. To me, if they break it, and I am 100%, they go home, if not I keep my mouth shut. If it's a L1 I might go talk to the shooter after the match but thats about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I do know that "Muzzle!" is not a USPSA call but an IDPA call. I mean as in "they did not even say anything during or after". As for not shooting there or changing squad, it is not able to clearly identify the sheriff in town would certainly help. Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. Yes you can, but to be honest I have seen very few warnings given. Typically the right thing to do is stop and issue a DQ for a safety issue. That is 99% of what I see happen. And it's what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. Can you point me to that in the rule book. I have heard people say that before but I looked and did not find it. To me, if they break it, and I am 100%, they go home, if not I keep my mouth shut. If it's a L1 I might go talk to the shooter after the match but thats about it. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. Can you point me to that in the rule book. I have heard people say that before but I looked and did not find it. To me, if they break it, and I am 100%, they go home, if not I keep my mouth shut. If it's a L1 I might go talk to the shooter after the match but thats about it. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. At L1 matches with newer shooters, I will often say "muzzle" or "finger". I am sure I have prevented some DQs by doing so. That is the "customer service" and "growing the sport" that too many people ignore and just want to drop the hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. Can you point me to that in the rule book. I have heard people say that before but I looked and did not find it. To me, if they break it, and I am 100%, they go home, if not I keep my mouth shut. If it's a L1 I might go talk to the shooter after the match but thats about it. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Actually, you can use "muzzle" as a safety command. Can you point me to that in the rule book. I have heard people say that before but I looked and did not find it. To me, if they break it, and I am 100%, they go home, if not I keep my mouth shut. If it's a L1 I might go talk to the shooter after the match but thats about it. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. At L1 matches with newer shooters, I will often say "muzzle" or "finger". I am sure I have prevented some DQs by doing so. That is the "customer service" and "growing the sport" that too many people ignore and just want to drop the hammer. Yes a new shooter gets a much "softer" version of some of the rules. I still don't talk to them during the COF. I do try to spend a lot of time with them before they run a stage to point out the danger points where they could get in trouble. The best way I have found to do this is helping them with their stage plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p7fl Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 No question yelling out finger or muzzle is something I do. You can anticipate a problem coming. Especially if the shooter has a malfunction, you know something is going to happen next, and you know a loss of concentration is coming. My mental approach is to anticipate problems not wait for them. Also, sometimes I get a squad with no real experienced ROs or not enough to help me. If they seem co-operative I stick them in as the ROs and call out the commands which they then repeat. They learn, I enjoy the give and take of working with someone and it seems to work. Just thoughts… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I am not suggesting any "softening" of the rules. Those things are all allowed under the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I am not suggesting any "softening" of the rules. Those things are all allowed under the rules. Brand new guy, goes 91 at an L1 and you are sure of it. Do you call it? Guy goes 91 and you are sure of it at an L2+ Do you call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I can't call a 91. Sorry, take my RO card away, but I don't have a protractor attached to my shooting glasses. I think If we are honest with ourselves most of us are calling either 85 or 95+ depending on which side of caution we ride or the angles at which we see things. Me, I'll call both of the above examples regardless of who is shooting, a break is a break and new guy at L1 or national champion at whatever level, makes no difference. Allowing a new shooter leeway only teaches him bad habits and forgiving a top shooter is inequitable to all involved and also teaches everyone bad habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 A 180 break is always called, yes, no matter who is shooting. If you do not follow-up the rules you are not shooting a sport. If you ignore safety rules, you are creating liability for you, the range and the organization. Follow the rules or do not officiate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ok we agree on "if you broke it you bought it". At an L2 I spend a fair amount of time on a stage looking for places people will break 90. I find reference points for example if he is standing here and the gun points past X he broke it. At an L1 I don't spend that much time looking at each stage for reference points, as I am not going to run 400 people through it. I can't call it as close as I don't have the stage down as well. So I guess I call L1's softer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Bottom line is if you can look the shooter in the eye and tell them exactly what they did, with no equivocation, then make the call. No calls made on "I think you......" Edited June 14, 2015 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Bottom line is if you can look the shooter in the eye and tell them exactly what they did, with no equivocation, then make the call. No calls made on "I think you......" Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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