Production 10rnds?

[DumKraken]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

[himurax13]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

I am sure that it was made so that those who have restrictive magazine capacity laws in their state could compete.

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

Edited May 14, 2015 by himurax13

[UncleTK]

My under standing, is that it was designed to be a entry level class.

A fobus holster and double mag holder and you were good to go.

[motosapiens]

Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10.

Are you saying that EVERY production gun holds 17 rd? Or just yours?

My under standing, is that it was designed to be a entry level class.

A fobus holster and double mag holder and you were good to go.

Except that you need at least 4 mag holders and at least 5 mags to have any hope of being competitive.

[RJH]

I also believe production was born when the nation wide 10 round restriction was in place.

[PKT1106]

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. I shoot a 40 for Production. I don't feel less competitive shooting a 40. Download it for minor and I think it shoots softer than a lot of 9mm at the same PF.

If you don't think you can be competitive with a 40 or even a 45, the answer is practice, not major.

[atbarr]

I shoot a G21 and a G41 in Production, soft and accurate.

[Poppa Bear]

My G22 with 130PF loads would be a great production gun. The slightly larger holes of .40 would be in my favor.

To bad it is a carry gun with laser grips.

[himurax13]

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. I shoot a 40 for Production. I don't feel less competitive shooting a 40. Download it for minor and I think it shoots softer than a lot of 9mm at the same PF.

If you don't think you can be competitive with a 40 or even a 45, the answer is practice, not major.

Umm, many folks shoot minor because they don't have the grip strength or have existing injuries that prevent them from handling major loads. A good majority of shooters do not reload so they are stuck with whatever they can get at the store. Practice won't alleviate those issues ...

Edited May 15, 2015 by himurax13

[Gooldylocks]

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. I shoot a 40 for Production. I don't feel less competitive shooting a 40. Download it for minor and I think it shoots softer than a lot of 9mm at the same PF.

If you don't think you can be competitive with a 40 or even a 45, the answer is practice, not major.

I agree, but as a correction... NO factory 9mm makes major. And 180 grain 40's at 730-750 fps is like cheating, I fully agree with you there.

::ETA:: I am mistaken, I have found one buffalo bore +P+ 147 grain load that makes major, according to factory load data. But in reality (actual ammo that people shoot), I stand by my statement that none of it makes major.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Gooldylocks

[ZachJ]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

[PKT1106]

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. I shoot a 40 for Production. I don't feel less competitive shooting a 40. Download it for minor and I think it shoots softer than a lot of 9mm at the same PF.

If you don't think you can be competitive with a 40 or even a 45, the answer is practice, not major.

Umm, many folks shoot minor because they don't have the grip strength or have existing injuries that prevent them from handling major loads. A good majority of shooters do not reload so they are stuck with whatever they can get at the store. Practice won't alleviate those issues ...

I did not realize you were talking factory ammo for all three calibers. Yep, it can be a disadvantage, but if they get serious about it, they have options. Trade the 40/45 for a 9, get a reloading setup, etc.

[9x45]

Production Division was introduced into USPSA to get IDPA shooters into the game.

[GrumpyOne]

My G22 with 130PF loads would be a great production gun. The slightly larger holes of .40 would be in my favor.

To bad it is a carry gun with laser grips.

In your favor until it cuts the perf of that pesky no shoot...

[Nik Habicht]

I also believe production was born when the nation wide 10 round restriction was in place.

Yup. and given the emphasis on major scoring in the other divisions, USPSA thought that a minor only division would provide another option on the playground.....

.....and the internet for debate.....

[Nik Habicht]

My G22 with 130PF loads would be a great production gun. The slightly larger holes of .40 would be in my favor.

To bad it is a carry gun with laser grips.

But it'll be just right for Production Optics......

[Nik Habicht]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

You're wrong on USPSA -- the ten round limit in production and L10 was a result of the ten round Federal capacity limit on newly manufactured magazines at the time the divisions were introduced....

IPSC started out unlimited, had a bit of an arms race, and then decided to do something about it, but decided to cap things at 15 rounds....

[ZachJ]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

You're wrong on USPSA -- the ten round limit in production and L10 was a result of the ten round Federal capacity limit on newly manufactured magazines at the time the divisions were introduced....

IPSC started out unlimited, had a bit of an arms race, and then decided to do something about it, but decided to cap things at 15 rounds....

Thanks, I was only sure about the IPSC capacity race.

[DumKraken]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

I am sure that it was made so that those who have restrictive magazine capacity laws in their state could compete.

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

I tried my search fu and came short in regards to the production division history. I thought production division was put in place prior to the gun ban/mag cap restrictions where there was no limit to topping off mag and then was later change to a max of 10. So the chicken came first or the egg?????

Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10.

Are you saying that EVERY production gun holds 17 rd? Or just yours?

My under standing, is that it was designed to be a entry level class.

A fobus holster and double mag holder and you were good to go.

Except that you need at least 4 mag holders and at least 5 mags to have any hope of being competitive.

+1 Entry level would be shooting a 22 no holster needed at low ready. So, definitely the point was to keep the mag cap restrictive state to keep playing the game.

[DumKraken]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

I am guessing during world shoot, production division, the mag capacity goes up to 15 then?

My G22 with 130PF loads would be a great production gun. The slightly larger holes of .40 would be in my favor.

To bad it is a carry gun with laser grips.

But it'll be just right for Production Optics......

Some of my shooting buddies were telling me about production optics. I guess a tanfolio stock 2 with an optics will be priced at 3k then . The madness continues.

[DumKraken]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

You're wrong on USPSA -- the ten round limit in production and L10 was a result of the ten round Federal capacity limit on newly manufactured magazines at the time the divisions were introduced....

IPSC started out unlimited, had a bit of an arms race, and then decided to do something about it, but decided to cap things at 15 rounds....

That would make sense. So when exactly production division was in place? All I could find was wiki which noted nationals production in 2002 I believe. I'm sure it started way earlier than that.

[himurax13]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

I am guessing during world shoot, production division, the mag capacity goes up to 15 then?

My G22 with 130PF loads would be a great production gun. The slightly larger holes of .40 would be in my favor.

To bad it is a carry gun with laser grips.

But it'll be just right for Production Optics......

Some of my shooting buddies were telling me about production optics. I guess a tanfolio stock 2 with an optics will be priced at 3k then . The madness continues.

Yes, a Production Optics division would be fun, lol.

[cnote]

I was just curious as to how it became about. What was the reason to only having a max of 10rnds. I can understand if it was a revolver, darn thing only has 6-8 holes. Now production on the other hand, you got a mag that can hold up to 17 rnds yet only loading a max of 10. I know it's a rule per USPSA, and I know curiosity killed the lion, but I am just wondering as how it became about. Thanks.

IIRC, a round limit was never in place for production division as it was envisioned. You were supposed to be able to fill the mag(s) that came from factory as is. But as with all things competitive a race began where manufacturers started manufacturing higher cap magazines. I believe the last one was Sig offering a 21 or 20 something capacity magazine.

Idk where uspsa got 10, and IPSC got 15 from but the intent was to level the capacity field.

You're wrong on USPSA -- the ten round limit in production and L10 was a result of the ten round Federal capacity limit on newly manufactured magazines at the time the divisions were introduced....

IPSC started out unlimited, had a bit of an arms race, and then decided to do something about it, but decided to cap things at 15 rounds....

That would make sense. So when exactly production division was in place? All I could find was wiki which noted nationals production in 2002 I believe. I'm sure it started way earlier than that.

2000 Nationals

Men's Champion Women's Champion

Open Todd Jarrett Kay Miculek

Limited Rob Leatham Lisa Munson

Limited-10 Ron Avery N/A

Production Ernest Langdon N/A

Edited May 15, 2015 by cnote

[cnote]

I also believe production was born when the nation wide 10 round restriction was in place.

The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, commonly called the assault weapons ban (AWB), was enacted in September 1994. The ban, including its ban on magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition, became defunct (expired) in September 2004 per a sunset provision.

[Jimdoe]

I tried shooting production but reloading a few mags every stage just wasn't my game. Shoot limited and you'll be ok.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Jimdoe