Loading to Division Capacity

[Tarkeg]

Had a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun.

I think someone who would accidentally hit the trigger while picking up a gun is equally likely to accidentally hit the trigger when drawing the gun. Loaded table starts are not at all unusual. Everyone I've seen specifies that the gun must be pointing downrange, so if an unsafe shooter does cook off a round, it will only be a match dq instead of something worse.

Table start was not my concern, it was the fact that the gun was loaded in the box on the table. I think there is a much higher likelihood of someone accidentally grabbing the trigger taking it out of a box than just picking it up off the table. Especially that day when we had a lot of new shooters.

Loaded gun in the box starts are extremely common in IDPA. If someone is concerned with the new shooters, they should help coach them to go slow...

[M1911]

Thanks for correcting me, this is the trouble I get into shooting both IDPA and USPSA. Had a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun. The MD then said load it but don't rack it. I believe what I was thinking when I posted before is USPSA where it is only capacity+1 when holstered. Again thanks for the correction.

I've competed in (and been an SO for) many matches with a fully loaded gun starting in the box. I've never seen anyone accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun. If you can draw a loaded gun from your holster while keeping your booger hook off the bang switch, you can do the same while withdrawing a gun from a box.

The main problem I've seen for box or table starts (loaded or unloaded) with new shooters is that in their zeal to get ready, they take out their gun and put it on the table or in the box without being prompted by an SO, while people are still downrange. I've seen this happen on multiple occasions.

[rowdyb]

I have flipped a box entirely over in my zeal to get the top open. I like the lid to have a bit of a lip for this very reason.

[Jim Watson]

I am slow on box or tabletop starts because I grab the gun by the barrel and slam it into my right hand. It is slower, but I have a firing grasp on the gun, by gum. And no splinters under my fingernails, either.

[9x45]

　

kirbinsterHad a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun.

　

Box/drawer starts are common in both IDPA and USPSA. The stage description dictates the unloaded/loaded condition (although typically IDPA will start with a hot gun in a closed drawer, and USPSA/IPSC will start with magazine in the gun, not cranked, and the drawer partly open). As far as being dangerous, that's a shooter problem and not a gun problem. And it is self correcting, like any other AD, in a box, in a holster, during a reload, etc. The only time your finger is on the trigger is while shooting at a target. If the newbies can't handle picking up a loaded gun, then they need to take up competitive quilting. Don't point that needle at your eye!

It's called Master Grip

Edited April 24, 2015 by 9x45

[9x45]

M1911

The main problem I've seen for box or table starts (loaded or unloaded) with new shooters is that in their zeal to get ready, they take out their gun and put it on the table or in the box without being prompted by an SO, while people are still downrange. I've seen this happen on multiple occasions.

Again, that's not a gun problem or a stage problem, it's a shooter problem. So if the range was actually clear, and the newbie makes ready ahead of the RO command, that's a warning. If there are downrange visitors, and the newbie makes ready ahead of the RO command, that's a flat out DQ. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they are capable of following simple safety rules.

[kirbinster]

M1911

..... So if the range was actually clear, and the newbie makes ready ahead of the RO command, that's a warning. If there are downrange visitors, and the newbie makes ready ahead of the RO command, that's a flat out DQ. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they are capable of following simple safety rules.

NO way! If the shooter takes the gun out of the holster before the make ready command he is gone for the day, no warnings - that is a DQ!

[davsco]

yes dq, but with new shooters I try to anticipate this and if they start going for it I will stop them before it gets to the dq point.

[kirbinster]

yes dq, but with new shooters I try to anticipate this and if they start going for it I will stop them before it gets to the dq point.

Agreed! I was an SO at an IDPA match a week ago and caught a new shooter pulling the gun out and I slapped his hand down and kept the gun from coming out. I explained to him why I did it and he was very thankful.

[9x45]

yes dq, but with new shooters I try to anticipate this and if they start going for it I will stop them before it gets to the dq point.

Agreed! I was an SO at an IDPA match a week ago and caught a new shooter pulling the gun out and I slapped his hand down and kept the gun from coming out. I explained to him why I did it and he was very thankful.

Don't want to thread drift from the OP's subject. Lets continue the discussion here

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214188

[M1911]

I have flipped a box entirely over in my zeal to get the top open. I like the lid to have a bit of a lip for this very reason.

That's why we secure the box to the table.

[M1911]

deleted

Edited April 25, 2015 by M1911

[arshooterxm15]

My understanding is you always load to division capacity, 10+1, unless the cof states different.

[M1911]

My understanding is you always load to division capacity, 10+1, unless the cof states different.

Yup.

[Craig N]

Yes. If you have high capacity ammunition feeding devices, load your Load And Make Ready magazine with 11 to simplify setting up. Mark it so you do not carry it as an improper reload magazine.

This is a good use of those different color basepads. On my ESP M&P I use black for 11 and silver for 10.

[M1911]

This is a good use of those different color basepads. On my ESP M&P I use black for 11 and silver for 10.

Agreed. That's how to do it.

[CoffeedrinkerinNC]

I shot a local club match today at a new to me club. On the second stage, which was 18 rounds, they told us in SSP to load 2 mags with 11 rounds, stating it was division capacity. I tried to argue the point that only the first magazine could be loaded with 11 rounds, to simulate 10 +1. I lost the point and we all loaded 11 rounds for the stage.

I

[v1911]

I shot a local club match today at a new to me club. On the second stage, which was 18 rounds, they told us in SSP to load 2 mags with 11 rounds, stating it was division capacity. I tried to argue the point that only the first magazine could be loaded with 11 rounds, to simulate 10 +1. I lost the point and we all loaded 11 rounds for the stage.

I

If they can't load to division capacity, I'd look for another club to shoot with.

[M1911]

I shot a local club match today at a new to me club. On the second stage, which was 18 rounds, they told us in SSP to load 2 mags with 11 rounds, stating it was division capacity. I tried to argue the point that only the first magazine could be loaded with 11 rounds, to simulate 10 +1. I lost the point and we all loaded 11 rounds for the stage.

Wow.

[Sac Law Man]

Division capacity is mag capacity plus one in the pipe, unless specified in the COF. In CDP and ESP you can chose to use mags with 7 rounds and 9 rounds respectively. However, you would have to use those throughout the match.. You can pick and choose whether to top off/use lower capacity mags or not based on what the COF calls for.

I think this rule is pretty clear.

8.1.3 Defines Div Capacity.

8.1.3.7 Says the shooter will start with one round in the chamber.

Also, the old rulebook clearly states Mag capacity for SSP is 10+1.. The rule has not changed and is still in effect.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Sac Law Man

[RMark]

The rule is 10+1 per HQ for SSP. The rule is not clear, Division cap is 10, shooter starts with a round in chamber. It does not state you need to top the mag, or start with 11 in the mag for loading, is that ok, it would be over division cap with 11 rounds .. CLEAR is 10 +1 for loaded start. I have it now. The new rulebook does not state 10 +1.

I am asking this because I am new to IDPA, just want to get it right.

Mark

[Sac Law Man]

Mark, It looks like you have your answer.. Like I said above, the old rule book defined SSP as 10+1, CDP 8+1 etc... for some reason IDPA decided to define it a different way in the new rule book. Take care..

[freeidaho]

8.1.2 Magazine Loading
8.1.2.1 All magazines must be loaded to division capacity at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:
8.1.2.2 If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match.

8.1.3 Division Capacity
8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.2 ESP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.3 CDP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.4 CCP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.5 REV – 6 rounds
8.1.3.6 BUG – 6 rounds total
8.1.3.7 NFC – 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

Other than using the 8.1.3.7 number twice it seems clear to me.

[Jim Watson]

It is not very clear what must be done in BUG. The bit "6 rounds total" should have been explained in the light of "will also start with one round in the chamber."

And why does NFC not get 10+1? Slowing down the trigger timers? Forgot about the added non-division?

[mcb]

It is not very clear what must be done in BUG. The bit "6 rounds total" should have been explained in the light of "will also start with one round in the chamber."

And why does NFC not get 10+1? Slowing down the trigger timers? Forgot about the added non-division?

8.2.6.6.2.5 In BUG semi-auto the shooter will start with one round in the chamber and 5 rounds in the magazine, and 6 rounds in each additional magazine.