Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

screwed up and registered as minor.


levellinebrad

Recommended Posts

A buddy of mine screwed up on his electronic registration and didn't catch it at sign in either. He is definitely loaded for major limited. This is a 2 day match and he caught it after today's courses of fire. Can he change his pf? The chrono guy shot his chrono so there will not be another chromo stage and he was not able to chromo today. The only thing I can find is the 1 hour appeal rule that might apply. What say ye oh masters of the rule book? And thanks for your time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 91
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Nothing in the rules defines when a declaration happens. Nothing says it cant happen after shots have been fired. Nothing says it can't happen at chrono. Most importantly, it doesn't say when a declaration cannot happen.

I'd think this is a decision for the RM and perhaps the MD. If MD and RM say the sign in table was your last opportunity, so be it. I'd think you have an hour after scores are posted to raise the issue, but I wouldn't wait. I'd raise it immediately. If what was written on your registration materials was wrong, it could not have been your declaration. Right?

I think you can arbitrate it. A simple statement that a clerical error happened and that your declaration is major should suffice. I'd be ready to arbitrate it as soon as you raise the issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No because he did not chrono due to it being shot.

Besides there is no discrepancy. He registered as minor and is being scored as minor.

Life's lessons are sometimes hard.

Gary nailed it. If the chrono is out, then declared power factor is real power factor. Had your friend mentioned it at registration/caught it before starting the match, then yes, the power factor declaration could have been adjusted.

5.6.1 One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination of the power factor of every competitor’s ammunition. In the absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged.

and Appendix C2 has no provisions for moving a competitor to Major based on chrono results, if the competitor registered as shooting minor.

Basically once you fire the first shot, you own your declared power factor, unless chrono moves you down, or out. (Out being subminor, in which case the competitor may continue for fun, but not for score....)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically once you fire the first shot, you own your declared power factor, unless chrono moves you down, or out. (Out being subminor, in which case the competitor may continue for fun, but not for score....)

It would be neat if the rules actually said this. As it is, the rules are silent on when and how a competitor declares power factor. It would be a simple addition to the requirement to declare a division. It wasn't important to operations on the range before single stack and revolver adopted different max capacities for major and minor. A rule wasn't needed. Power factor could have been declared at chrono or at any point ammo was collected along with the declaration of bullet weight in the event the scale broke. If he's not shooting single stack or revolver, what rule says match director/range master can't just accept the declaration and move on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks to me like the declaration took place during the registration process electronically where the competitor selected minor from the options presented, and confirmed it when he signed into the match. The logic is flawed. If he had not declared at that time there would be no "error" to correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last I heard, typo's are errors and not declarations. The fact that he could have changed it at sign in allows for correction of errors made in making an initial declaration. There is no rule that bars correction of errors if the error is missed at sign in. It seems that people are just making rules up that suit them.

Let him change his declaration. If you think the competitor is cheating, take multiple samples of the competitor's ammo throughout the day and test them later and present results as evidence of cheating. Making up a rule to get around the consequences of the chrono failure is not the way to go here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I spoke to one of the CRO's and and a range master. They have basically stated that the error can still be corrected today when the match resumes. I can find nothing in the rule book that states he cannot fix this error until the match is complete and results have been posted for more than an hour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good that he gets to fix the mistake but it seems like he himself is challenging his own declaration of power factor. Was it the right choice as a person, sure. As a match official according to the rule book, only if Troy would agree.

Just my $.02

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good that he gets to fix the mistake but it seems like he himself is challenging his own declaration of power factor. Was it the right choice as a person, sure. As a match official according to the rule book, only if Troy would agree.

Just my $.02

The MD that I spoke to is not the MD for this match so he just told me his opinion. We'll see what the match director for Piedmont says. My only thoughts on it are that since they're still in the match, it should be an error that is easily corrected. I'm sure he would have no problem running his ammo over a chrono just as proof. I thought it was an interesting situation since I did the same thing at a local match a couple of weeks ago. I went in the opposite direction though. I registered as a u class when I am a c class. I didn't catch it until a week after the results were posted. The bad thing is that i received a match credit for winning u class. I have let the match director know and while I can't get my score to count anymore, because I also fat fingered my member number, I can at least make sure the right guy gets the match credit. Thanks for the replies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this was a two day match, I'm guessing it's a level 2 match. But I don't follow why someone would be shooting both days. I also don't follow how the person running the chrono could have shot it, or why there wasn't a backup. IOW, what kind of match was this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PF is declared and then checked to see if you meet the standard you declared. It is not 125-165 is minor and 165 to gun blowing up is major. If declared minor they make sure you are over 125. If so you made PF. Where the issue could come up going from minor to major is Ss. 40 can shoot major or minor in Ss and minor allows 10 rounds in the mag. How many stages could someone do that on before chrono if marked minor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last I heard, typo's are errors and not declarations. The fact that he could have changed it at sign in allows for correction of errors made in making an initial declaration. There is no rule that bars correction of errors if the error is missed at sign in. It seems that people are just making rules up that suit them.Let him change his declaration. If you think the competitor is cheating, take multiple samples of the competitor's ammo throughout the day and test them later and present results as evidence of cheating. Making up a rule to get around the consequences of the chrono failure is not the way to go here.

By your reasoning, it would make it very simple for anyone who thought there was gonna be a chrono (but the chrono gets shot, they decide not to use it, a tree falls on it, whatever) at a match to sign up as minor, shoot minor, and right before the match ends, ask to be scored major. C2-5 is clear. Whether he purposely declared minor or it was an accident, he owns it. He had 2 chances to change it already, once electronically when he registered, and once on match day. C2 says "must", not "should", not "can be", not "ought to"....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this was a two day match, I'm guessing it's a level 2 match. But I don't follow why someone would be shooting both days. I also don't follow how the person running the chrono could have shot it, or why there wasn't a backup. IOW, what kind of match was this?

It is a level 2 match but the match is held at 2 different ranges. I know that's weird but that's what the deal is. Neither range is big enough to host 10 stages in the same weekend but they are relatively close to each other. I'm not sure why there was no back up but I don't think it is required to have 2 chronographs. The dnroi has ruled that the minor scoring will remain in effect throughout the match. I don't think I agree with that ruling. What if he had spelled his name wrong while typing that in? Could he not change that? My buddy is going to continue shooting and just have fun but still not sure I agree with the ruling. The only thing I know for sure is that I wish I was shooting instead of going to a wedding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last I heard, typo's are errors and not declarations. The fact that he could have changed it at sign in allows for correction of errors made in making an initial declaration. There is no rule that bars correction of errors if the error is missed at sign in. It seems that people are just making rules up that suit them.Let him change his declaration. If you think the competitor is cheating, take multiple samples of the competitor's ammo throughout the day and test them later and present results as evidence of cheating. Making up a rule to get around the consequences of the chrono failure is not the way to go here.

By your reasoning, it would make it very simple for anyone who thought there was gonna be a chrono (but the chrono gets shot, they decide not to use it, a tree falls on it, whatever) at a match to sign up as minor, shoot minor, and right before the match ends, ask to be scored major. C2-5 is clear. Whether he purposely declared minor or it was an accident, he owns it. He had 2 chances to change it already, once electronically when he registered, and once on match day. C2 says "must", not "should", not "can be", not "ought to"....

That makes sense. Even though I know this guy is as honest as the day is long, there would be the possibility that unscrupulous activity could occur.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is nothing in the rules that states that a person must declare their PF before the match begins. By that same logic, a production shooter who gets bumped to open may not declare major. Nobody has ever provided me with any rule to prevent that from happening.

The rules should be interpreted to try to be fair to competitors when possible. There is no competitive equity lost by allowing the correction of an error.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does keeping this guy in minor maintain the integrity of the sport? he says it was a clerical error and the explanation seems reasonable to me. when he either went to the chrono or went to the chrono himself, he shot major. I'm not aware of any rule that says he can't

fix this clerical error. this shouldn't be treated as a gotcha moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does keeping this guy in minor maintain the integrity of the sport? he says it was a clerical error and the explanation seems reasonable to me. when he either went to the chrono or went to the chrono himself, he shot major. I'm not aware of any rule that says he can't

fix this clerical error. this shouldn't be treated as a gotcha moment.

He was not able shoot the chrono stage unfortunately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is nothing in the rules that states that a person must declare their PF before the match begins. By that same logic, a production shooter who gets bumped to open may not declare major. Nobody has ever provided me with any rule to prevent that from happening.

The rules should be interpreted to try to be fair to competitors when possible. There is no competitive equity lost by allowing the correction of an error.

Funny that's not how I remember it from RO school......

6.2 Match Divisions

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

6.2.2 In USPSA sanctioned matches, the minimum number of competitors stipulated in Appendix A2 must compete in each Division for it to be recognized. If there are insufficient competitors in a Division, the Match Director may allow that Division to stand without official USPSA recognition.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

Emphasis mine. Right at the beginning of 6.2 we're introduced to the concept that the divisions recognize different equipment and guns -- and there's a reference to Appendix D. Appendix D items 1&2 clarify which power factors are available for recognition within the division.

6.2.3 clarifies that prior to commencement of the match (meaning before the competitor fires his first shot) he/she must declare one division for score. Notice that the word score is incorporated in that sentence. When declaring a division other than Production, the follow-up question is "Which Power Factor." Until we have that, we don't have a proper division declaration.

These aren't new principles -- and there's certainly nothing about SS and Revolver that provides any new impetus for declaring power factor before firing the first shot -- that principle is probably as old as USPSA. It was certainly expected when I started in the sport in 2001, and mentioned in my first RO class in 2002, and reaffirmed in classes I've attended since.

Once you fire the first round, you own your declaration, unless chrono moves you down or out. Simple.

To those of you talking about typos -- check your work before clicking submit, or pay attention when you arrive at registration for the match -- that's your opportunity to change divisions or power factors, not after you've started shooting the match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...