screwed up and registered as minor.

[nwhpfan]

To those of you talking about typos -- check your work before clicking submit, or pay attention when you arrive at registration for the match -- that's your opportunity to change divisions or power factors, not after you've started shooting the match.

So you would say tough...your shooting minor because they guy made an error and that is his punishment for not checking for errors on the entry form?

It's too bad the chrono man shot the chrono and their isn't another one available to straighten this out. I'd like to see a level or reasonableness assigned to this kind of error myself. I don't think the rules are intended to catch people who make an error on their entry form - leaving them at a competitive disadvantage for a match.

Can we not do the right thing? Do we need a rule now to clarify this like a rule not to penalize somebody for pulling a mag out of their front pocket to make ready? Guy forgot to check a box.....I'd like to think a RM/MD could look into the matter and be able to figure this out.

I think rule 5.6.1 is clear a competitors PF cannot be challenged....by an official, or competitor if there is no chrono available. Subsequent rules discuss what the power factor is. That is all it is saying.There is nothing that says a guy who checked the wrong box can't fix it later.

And what about a guy who shows up with their limited gun and checks "revolver." Or the new M who checks "A"....this stuff happens.

Edited March 15, 2015 by nwhpfan

[NMBOpen]

Class is a separate issue. As stats person, I apply the current USPSA classification in effect at the start of the match for the declared division, verified at check-in. People can, and do, change divisions at check-in. Equipment violation bump to open is the only division change after first shot.

[Nik Habicht]

To those of you talking about typos -- check your work before clicking submit, or pay attention when you arrive at registration for the match -- that's your opportunity to change divisions or power factors, not after you've started shooting the match.

So you would say tough...your shooting minor because they guy made an error and that is his punishment for not checking for errors on the entry form?

It's too bad the chrono man shot the chrono and their isn't another one available to straighten this out. I'd like to see a level or reasonableness assigned to this kind of error myself. I don't think the rules are intended to catch people who make an error on their entry form - leaving them at a competitive disadvantage for a match.

Can we not do the right thing? Do we need a rule now to clarify this like a rule not to penalize somebody for pulling a mag out of their front pocket to make ready? Guy forgot to check a box.....I'd like to think a RM/MD could look into the matter and be able to figure this out.

I think rule 5.6.1 is clear a competitors PF cannot be challenged....by an official, or competitor if there is no chrono available. Subsequent rules discuss what the power factor is. That is all it is saying.There is nothing that says a guy who checked the wrong box can't fix it later.

And what about a guy who shows up with their limited gun and checks "revolver." Or the new M who checks "A"....this stuff happens.

What about the guy who declares minor, because he's shooting minor -- and then when he hears the chrono was shot, and his ammo won't be chronographed, decides to "correct" his declaration to major? I'm generally in favor of being reasonable and accommodating competitors -- but this would be pretty ease to game, if you find out halfway that there's no chrono.

And it goes against our historical precedent. Now -- when you guys checked in for the match, did they reconfirm what division and power factor you had declared? That's generally part of the process at larger matches......

[GrumpyOne]

What about the guy who declares minor, because he's shooting minor -- and then when he hears the chrono was shot, and his ammo won't be chronographed, decides to "correct" his declaration to major? I'm generally in favor of being reasonable and accommodating competitors -- but this would be pretty ease to game, if you find out halfway that there's no chrono.

And it goes against our historical precedent. Now -- when you guys checked in for the match, did they reconfirm what division and power factor you had declared? That's generally part of the process at larger matches......

Couldn't have said it better myself Nik....oh wait, I did say that....

[nwhpfan]

When the competitor discovered the error, what he did to remedy it, who he spoke to, witnesses that could corroborate the actions of the shooter, when they discovered the chrono was damaged, observations from shooters and RO's in the squad are all factors to consider IMO. If the strawman hears the chrono is shot and says, "Hey I think I'm actually shooting major" that should be taken into consideration also. I think something like this is serious and all the facts should be gathered to make the correct decision.

[Gary Stevens]

Other than "trust me" how does your shooter prove he is shooting major? Just for discussion sake.

The chrono is a confirmation of your declared power factor. Absent the chrono the declared power factor is taken at face value.

I think you understand the rules, and I admire your loyalty to your friend, but we are now discussing what the meaning of "is" is.

[motosapiens]

Well, I'm pretty impressed with all these responses. Apparently many people have forgotten rule #1. I assume all you folks that think the guy was cheating would also not let a competitor correct his division if it was wrong and somehow not caught at signup. I remember a couple competitors at 2012 production nationals being listed as 'open' on the first day. I guess they should have just been out of luck and had to compete with max and eric while shooting 10-rd minor guns with iron sights.

It seems VERY unlikely to me that someone would declare minor 40 at a match and then try to cheat when they found the chrono was broken.

If you are THAT concerned about cheating, then get another chrono. They sell them at stores. They're not even that expensive.

[motosapiens]

Other than "trust me" how does your shooter prove he is shooting major? Just for discussion sake.

If the chrono is broken and the match is too disorganized to have a backup, every other major shooter is saying 'trust me', and that's ok, right?

[GrumpyOne]

Well, I'm pretty impressed with all these responses. Apparently many people have forgotten rule #1. I assume all you folks that think the guy was cheating would also not let a competitor correct his division if it was wrong and somehow not caught at signup. I remember a couple competitors at 2012 production nationals being listed as 'open' on the first day. I guess they should have just been out of luck and had to compete with max and eric while shooting 10-rd minor guns with iron sights.

It seems VERY unlikely to me that someone would declare minor 40 at a match and then try to cheat when they found the chrono was broken.

If you are THAT concerned about cheating, then get another chrono. They sell them at stores. They're not even that expensive.

Not even close to the same scenario. You can obviously tell an open gun from a non open gun. Can you do the same with ammo?

[GrumpyOne]

Other than "trust me" how does your shooter prove he is shooting major? Just for discussion sake.

If the chrono is broken and the match is too disorganized to have a backup, every other major shooter is saying 'trust me', and that's ok, right?

Again, you miss the point. In the absence of a chrono, the shooters declared power factor is what they go by. He declared minor.

[motosapiens]

Other than "trust me" how does your shooter prove he is shooting major? Just for discussion sake.

If the chrono is broken and the match is too disorganized to have a backup, every other major shooter is saying 'trust me', and that's ok, right?

Again, you miss the point. In the absence of a chrono, the shooters declared power factor is what they go by. He declared minor.

I didn't miss the point at all. The shooter apparently did not *intentionally* declare minor. Y'all are apparently calling him a liar and a cheat.

I have seen registration mistakes happen at all levels of matches, and they seem to be more prevalent with electronic registration. I think the right thing to do is to correct them, not to accuse someone of lying and cheating and try to find a way to screw him over. If you're that concerned about cheaters, get another chrono.

Edited March 16, 2015 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

Well, I'm pretty impressed with all these responses. Apparently many people have forgotten rule #1. I assume all you folks that think the guy was cheating would also not let a competitor correct his division if it was wrong and somehow not caught at signup. I remember a couple competitors at 2012 production nationals being listed as 'open' on the first day. I guess they should have just been out of luck and had to compete with max and eric while shooting 10-rd minor guns with iron sights.

It seems VERY unlikely to me that someone would declare minor 40 at a match and then try to cheat when they found the chrono was broken.

If you are THAT concerned about cheating, then get another chrono. They sell them at stores. They're not even that expensive.

Not even close to the same scenario. You can obviously tell an open gun from a non open gun. Can you do the same with ammo?

It's the exact same scenario; a registration typo.

I can tell the difference between minor and major ammo pretty easily. I never have any confusion as to which is in my gun.

[Strick]

I have seen registration mistakes happen at all levels of matches, and they seem to be more prevalent with electronic registration. I think the right thing to do is to correct them, not to accuse someone of lying and cheating and try to find a way to screw him over. If you're that concerned about cheaters, get another chrono.

You said it right.....a registration mistake. Which at the time of sign up for the match should be double checked and also at....wait what is the word......REGISTRATION should be checked.

I have shot a match or 2 and I do not recall a time when the person at registration didn't ask me to verify my information. Spend money to travel, practice, load ammo, and head to a match......don't think it is out of line to expect a shooter to verify their info at registration (that is one big reason they have it before you shoot).

I do think it sucks that this shooter made a mistake and I do not think it was intentional (I am assuming based on the vast majority of shooters I know) but in the grand scheme of things it is one match, he was able to shoot and will be scored.

[motosapiens]

I have shot a match or 2 and I do not recall a time when the person at registration didn't ask me to verify my information. Spend money to travel, practice, load ammo, and head to a match......don't think it is out of line to expect a shooter to verify their info at registration (that is one big reason they have it before you shoot).

I still see mistakes in results, and fortunately that stuff is generally fixed right away without anyone accusing anyone else of cheating, lol.

[robb315]

I have shot a match or 2 and I do not recall a time when the person at registration didn't ask me to verify my information. Spend money to travel, practice, load ammo, and head to a match......don't think it is out of line to expect a shooter to verify their info at registration (that is one big reason they have it before you shoot).

I still see mistakes in results, and fortunately that stuff is generally fixed right away without anyone accusing anyone else of cheating, lol.

Even then, rule 9.8.3 states you only have one hour at the end of the match to appeal the mistake and after that the score stands as is.

[GrumpyOne]

Other than "trust me" how does your shooter prove he is shooting major? Just for discussion sake.

If the chrono is broken and the match is too disorganized to have a backup, every other major shooter is saying 'trust me', and that's ok, right?

Again, you miss the point. In the absence of a chrono, the shooters declared power factor is what they go by. He declared minor.

I didn't miss the point at all. The shooter apparently did not *intentionally* declare minor. Y'all are apparently calling him a liar and a cheat.

I have seen registration mistakes happen at all levels of matches, and they seem to be more prevalent with electronic registration. I think the right thing to do is to correct them, not to accuse someone of lying and cheating and try to find a way to screw him over. If you're that concerned about cheaters, get another chrono.

No one is calling him a liar and a cheat...You say he did not "intentionally" declare minor...Nor did He "intentionally" declare major. Sure, I believe it was a typo, and I'll bet he was even shooting major ammo...does not change the fact that on the paperwork, he declared minor, shot some of the match, and wants to change to major midways through. Again, absence of a chrono, the PF that the shooter declares (intentionally or not, whatever is on the paperwork at the beginning of the match), is what he will be scored as. There is no provision and no way to to prove that he did shoot major, nor is there anyway to prove that he shot minor. Right or wrong, those is the breaks. Check your registration at sign in.

[GrumpyOne]

Well, I'm pretty impressed with all these responses. Apparently many people have forgotten rule #1. I assume all you folks that think the guy was cheating would also not let a competitor correct his division if it was wrong and somehow not caught at signup. I remember a couple competitors at 2012 production nationals being listed as 'open' on the first day. I guess they should have just been out of luck and had to compete with max and eric while shooting 10-rd minor guns with iron sights.

It seems VERY unlikely to me that someone would declare minor 40 at a match and then try to cheat when they found the chrono was broken.

If you are THAT concerned about cheating, then get another chrono. They sell them at stores. They're not even that expensive.

Not even close to the same scenario. You can obviously tell an open gun from a non open gun. Can you do the same with ammo?

It's the exact same scenario; a registration typo.

I can tell the difference between minor and major ammo pretty easily. I never have any confusion as to which is in my gun.

Ok then, let me lay out a bunch of my ammo in front of you and you tell me which is major or minor.

We aren't talking about your ammo here...you cannot go by the sound of the report, nor can you go by the way the steel falls.

[motosapiens]

No one is calling him a liar and a cheat...You say he did not "intentionally" declare minor...Nor did He "intentionally" declare major. Sure, I believe it was a typo, and I'll bet he was even shooting major ammo...does not change the fact that on the paperwork, he declared minor, shot some of the match, and wants to change to major midways through. Again, absence of a chrono, the PF that the shooter declares (intentionally or not, whatever is on the paperwork at the beginning of the match), is what he will be scored as. There is no provision and no way to to prove that he did shoot major, nor is there anyway to prove that he shot minor. Right or wrong, those is the breaks. Check your registration at sign in.

I still don't understand your reasoning that some registration errors or typos *can* be corrected, and some can't. The rulebook doesn't include anything supporting the bolded words in your quote above. In the absense of a chrono, NO ONE can prove what they shot. You have to take their word for it.

Can you provide me a reason from the rulebook for not allowing a powerfactor registration error to be corrected, while still allowing someone to correct their division, or USPSA number or last name spelling? (note that I'm not saying you can't run *your* match that way, but it looks to me that would be a personal choice, not a rules-based decision).

Edited March 16, 2015 by motosapiens

[GrumpyOne]

No one is calling him a liar and a cheat...You say he did not "intentionally" declare minor...Nor did He "intentionally" declare major. Sure, I believe it was a typo, and I'll bet he was even shooting major ammo...does not change the fact that on the paperwork, he declared minor, shot some of the match, and wants to change to major midways through. Again, absence of a chrono, the PF that the shooter declares (intentionally or not, whatever is on the paperwork at the beginning of the match), is what he will be scored as. There is no provision and no way to to prove that he did shoot major, nor is there anyway to prove that he shot minor. Right or wrong, those is the breaks. Check your registration at sign in.

I still don't understand your reasoning that some registration errors or typos *can* be corrected, and some can't. The rulebook doesn't include anything supporting the bolded words in your quote above. In the absense of a chrono, NO ONE can prove what they shot. You have to take their word for it.

Can you provide me a reason from the rulebook for not allowing a powerfactor registration error to be corrected, while still allowing someone to correct their division, or USPSA number or last name spelling?

Not from the rule book, but a division change can be proven by examining the gun, A USPSA number error can be proven and corrected by looking at the shooters USPSA card, Someone's last name can be proven and corrected by looking at their drivers license. IN THE ABSENCE OF A CHRONO, POWER FACTOR CANNOT BE PROVEN.

Had the chrono not been shot, he would have still possibly been in the same situation (but he would have a leg to stand on). He declared minor (again, maybe not intentionally, but that is what is on record) and his ammo made minor. No different than someone showing up with some S&W 40 WWB 165gr shooting Production (or Limited, and once Chrono was run, and they made major, changing their declaration to major). Again, check the paperwork at registration.

[motosapiens]

Not from the rule book, but a division change can be proven by examining the gun, A USPSA number error can be proven and corrected by looking at the shooters USPSA card, Someone's last name can be proven and corrected by looking at their drivers license. IN THE ABSENCE OF A CHRONO, POWER FACTOR CANNOT BE PROVEN.

So? no one else's power factor can be proven either. Sounds like you are saying take everyone's word for it, but only in advance. If a mistake happens, too bad.

But you have me curious now.... do you actually ask for the uspsa card or driver's license to correct other typos? Perhaps I have been insufficiently diligent at local matches by just asking people to spell their names for me.

What if someone (god forbid) has their gender listed wrong in the results? do you recommend visual inspection, or hands-on/in?

Edited March 16, 2015 by motosapiens

[GrumpyOne]

Not from the rule book, but a division change can be proven by examining the gun, A USPSA number error can be proven and corrected by looking at the shooters USPSA card, Someone's last name can be proven and corrected by looking at their drivers license. IN THE ABSENCE OF A CHRONO, POWER FACTOR CANNOT BE PROVEN.

So? no one else's power factor can be proven either. Sounds like you are saying take everyone's word for it, but only in advance. If a mistake happens, too bad.

But you have me curious now.... do you actually ask for the uspsa card or driver's license to correct other typos? Perhaps I have been insufficiently diligent at local matches by just asking people to spell their names for me.

Again, I said it could be proven, not that it has to be. Power factor cannot be proven. What does a person gain by giving the wrong USPSA number or the wrong name? Nothing. What is the potential gain for someone declaring minor then getting scored major? ALOT.

[motosapiens]

Not from the rule book, but a division change can be proven by examining the gun, A USPSA number error can be proven and corrected by looking at the shooters USPSA card, Someone's last name can be proven and corrected by looking at their drivers license. IN THE ABSENCE OF A CHRONO, POWER FACTOR CANNOT BE PROVEN.

So? no one else's power factor can be proven either. Sounds like you are saying take everyone's word for it, but only in advance. If a mistake happens, too bad.

But you have me curious now.... do you actually ask for the uspsa card or driver's license to correct other typos? Perhaps I have been insufficiently diligent at local matches by just asking people to spell their names for me.

Again, I said it could be proven, not that it has to be. Power factor cannot be proven. What does a person gain by giving the wrong USPSA number or the wrong name? Nothing. What is the potential gain for someone declaring minor then getting scored major? ALOT.

Ok, so you *are* accusing the person of cheating. I wouldn't go that far in the absense of other information, but I see where you're coming from.

[GrumpyOne]

Not from the rule book, but a division change can be proven by examining the gun, A USPSA number error can be proven and corrected by looking at the shooters USPSA card, Someone's last name can be proven and corrected by looking at their drivers license. IN THE ABSENCE OF A CHRONO, POWER FACTOR CANNOT BE PROVEN.

So? no one else's power factor can be proven either. Sounds like you are saying take everyone's word for it, but only in advance. If a mistake happens, too bad.

But you have me curious now.... do you actually ask for the uspsa card or driver's license to correct other typos? Perhaps I have been insufficiently diligent at local matches by just asking people to spell their names for me.

Again, I said it could be proven, not that it has to be. Power factor cannot be proven. What does a person gain by giving the wrong USPSA number or the wrong name? Nothing. What is the potential gain for someone declaring minor then getting scored major? ALOT.

Ok, so you *are* accusing the person of cheating. I wouldn't go that far in the absense of other information, but I see where you're coming from.

Not so much accusing the person of cheating, more like keeping everyone honest. He can no more prove that he shot major than you can prove that you shot major (if you had not been chronoed before the chrono was shot). It sucks, but it is what it is. They have to go by what was declared...Had the chrono not been shot, the RM might see fit to move him to major (if he chronoed major), but no guarantee. With it shot, it's the competitors word...and his word on paper was minor.

[motosapiens]

Not so much accusing the person of cheating, more like keeping everyone honest. He can no more prove that he shot major than you can prove that you shot major (if you had not been chronoed before the chrono was shot). It sucks, but it is what it is. They have to go by what was declared...Had the chrono not been shot, the RM might see fit to move him to major (if he chronoed major), but no guarantee. With it shot, it's the competitors word...and his word on paper was minor.

I don't think they *have to* go with the mistake at all, although I understand your argument for that position. Seems to me it's up to the MD, the chrono or lack thereof really doesn't have any significant bearing.

If the competitor really wanted to cheat, he would declare major, and bring major ammo to chrono, and shoot minor ammo everywhere else.

But whatever..... this thread has really educated me as how un-diligent I have been about gender confirmation during registration.

[Corey]

I've never been to a major match where they didn't verify my USPSA number, my division of choice and my power factor. I don't see how this wasn't caught ahead of time. Yes, I can see a typo on a form, I've done it. A lot.

No one is accusing anyone of cheating, but when the match staff, specifically the stats person gets the paperwork, they don't know whether it was an accident or not as to what was typed. They go by what they see. If its wrong, I think its the shooter's job to catch it and correct it. Conversation at the signin/registration booth: "Hi there, we have you number as XXXXX, are you still shooting Limited Minor?" "Uh, no that's wrong im shooting major" "oh, ok let me change that for you". That really should have been all there was to it.

Like some of the others have said, the chrono is there to prove that the declared PF is being met, not determine PF per say. Without the chrono, you have to go by what the pre-match declared PF is. There really is no other way around it.