Need help convincing the local gun club

[Clay1]

One of the gun clubs that I belong to is a very nice facility. State shoots have been held here. There is cowboy action shooting, black powder, trap, Rimfire silhouette, benchrest, over the course service rifle and archery. I was putting some work hours for the club today and I was wearing my IDPA hat. The guy that I was working with asked me if I shot pistols at all? I said yes. He asked should we have IDPA style shooting at this club and I said most definately. Then he went on a huge tirade about how it wasn't safe.

Yes, I could just blow him off as someone that has his head up a certain orfice, but I tried to engage in civil conversation.

He brought up the youngster that was killed at a tournament. We had different opinions of the actual events. Can someone post a link with some accurate information on what really happened and not the I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from their brother in law.

He specifically didn't like running with the gun. He said that we practice killing people and that the IDPA promotes this practice as having fun. I said that we practice saving lives. Since to join this club you have to be an NRA member, I asked if he believe in the right of self defense. He agreed. I said that you think that it is OK to defend yourself, but God forbid that you actually practice what you believe in. I also stated that IDPA does try to come up with realistic senarios, but it is still a game.

What I would like from my fellow shooters here is some info that I can present to the board of directors that will put IDPA style shooting in a good light not only on the safety front but to answer his question about practicing to kill people. Your help is much appreciated. I will contact IDPA HQ with a similar request.

Rick Ingle

By the way he has never been to a shoot, I invited him to a small shoot with me next weekend. He is considering it. We just bought another 40 acres for the club and there is a 3 sided gravel pit on the property that would be great for IDPA stages. Perfectly safe environment.

[Flexmoney]

Where are you located?

[Clay1]

Southern Wisconsin, the club is the Beloit Rifle club. Thanks

[zhunter]

Southern Wisconsin, the club is the Beloit Rifle club. Thanks

They let you have guns up there? That state voted Democrate I believe!

[Merlin Orr]

From the tone of your previous conversation - sounds like a steep hill in front of you.

[rhino]

Some comments & suggestions:

1. Most of the problem (as you know) is ignorance. People as described above have never even seen a match, yet they "know" about how unsafe it is.

2. The fatality to which you refer happened at a USPSA club in Texas, long before IDPA existed. This does not diminish the tragedy, but it had nothing to do with IDPA.

3. You need to make sure the facility is adequate for an action/practical pistol sport. If your berms, both backstop and sides, are not high enough, then you'll need to address that.

4. Schedule a "demonstration match" solely for the people who will actually make the decisions. Typically that is a board of directors. They will be the observers. You want to have ONLY EXPERIENCED, known-to-be-safe shooters doing the demos, so you may have to get the assistance of shooters from an existing club. Seeing the real thing in action is the best way to address the ignorance issue.

5. When you make your presentation to your board, make sure you stress the safety rules and how rigid they are. Also stress that only one person in any shooting area is allowed to have a loaded gun (hot range clubs notwithstanding), and then only at the direction and under the constant supervision of a safety officer.

[Ted Murphy]

Rick,

I've run into that at a few clubs. Some guys get as wacky and emotional as a Million Mom March member when they think about what IDPA or USPSA shooters do on a range. It is difficlult to play to those fears but it can be done.

Having helped start a couple of clubs at places that weren't 100% welcome to the idea, I do have some ideas. Try to get a meeting with the movers and shakers of the club. Get the area coordinator or a safety officer instructor to come to that meeting and make a presentation about the sport. Hype their experience and show to the people that the SOI/AC is there to help you develop a team of dedicated Safety Officers to keep the matchessafe. (FWIW, naming them Safety Officers instead of Range Officers may be semantics but I do believe its use has helped instill confidence to powers that be) Emphasize the safety record of the action shooting sports and discuss what ideas you had for a safety program, etc. Being prepared and appearing to be squared away will help fight the ignorance.

Sometimes demonstrating "baby steps" to the new club is a help. Tell them you will do the first match without drawing or movement, then ease those factors in as the shooters get more experienced. Sometimes that will help too.

Another good sell is the money end. On clubs that need a few bucks, a good action shooting program can provide some nice bank to a strapped gun club.

As far as the incident you describe, I do not know much about it beyond what was on TV- which isn't much.

The biggest problem when it isn't ignorance you are fighting but bias. Some people don't want "quick draw" or whatever at their range and will do everything possible to prevent it. I don't know what to do about those types. IN their case it's okay to shoot trap or whathave you but every other sport is just horrid. In the first year at my club we had some of the people who fought our shooting there show up to every match. Rumor had it they were there just hoping that someone would get hurtSometimes I think we are our own worst enemies.

[shred]

Don't people run with guns in cowboy matches? shoot steel ridiculously close? I'd figure it would be an easy sell from 'cowboys-n-indians' to 'cops-n-robbers'

There is a big group of shooters that think anything more extreme than what they themselves do is 'too dangerous'.

I'm slowly working on one local NRA-is-the-last-word-in-shooting (except for that dangerous newfangled Action Pistol stuff, why they shoot steel closer than 40 meters for Pete's sake!) club to admit that shooters can be safe even if they're not imprisoned by a concrete bench, but it's slow going. And they wonder why 30% of their membership is over 55..

The yahoos that break the rules and do whatever they want don't help at all. Distancing yourself from them is also key.

[Clay1]

Up hill battle is a good description. It is a good club, with lots of bias. No man targets are allowed at the club. One retired police officer thinks that he is saving the world by not letting us shoot cardboard silhouettes. Yes, it is frustrating, but he isn't the only one on the board that feels this way. I found an a friend in the high power shooters that shoot over the course style rilfe shooting. Just have to gather those with positive views and that along with some education and work toward the best.

Ted and others thanks for some direction in the right path to follow.

[Clay1]

Shred, I'll try to contact the cowboy "action" shooters and see what I can stir up. I have clubs in the local area when I can shoot either IDPA or USPSA every weekend starting this month. But it drives me nuts that I can't even practice at my home club. They don't want any rapid fire shooting either. The club president said no uncontrolled fire and he can tell if it's controlled or not by the speed of the shooting

I told him that he can check my targets for rounds hit. I happen to control shots faster than some

If I miss a target does that mean that I it's not controlled? Please boot out everyone at the club that misses their target and she how far that goes. I'm up for the challenge, just trying to gather some good info before I get in the discussion without doing my homework.

[Sestock]

IDPA or USPSA has to be a hell of a lot safer that Cowboy Action. Those matches scare me.

[rhino]

Here's another idea:

1. Get a bunch of shooters in your discipline (or one closely related) to join the club

2. Become good members, participate in meetings, and generally make it known you care about the club's future

3. When elections role around, you run someone from your group for each available position

4. If you have enough of your own people as members, and you make a good enough impression on the club's regulars, you might win some offices.

5. You now have sympathetic people in the positions that control the future of the club.

It can be a long term effort, but it can work. It can also be an investment in your future, as sometimes the practical shooters are not welcome even if they are allowed to rent the range for a period of time. If you the people who run the club are the same ones who want the matches there ... problems solved for the long term.

[BSeevers]

I agree with Rhino's suggestion.

Some of the most Anti-gun people I have met in my life are "Gun" people. They are usually mean bitter old men and that is a problem. You ain't changing them.

They do eventually die but are usually replaced by common idiots. Try the other approach but its an uphill journey.

Be professional and never get in a pissing match. The money angle is great. we have idiots all over that try to get IPSC thrown out of clubs. IPSC brings in almost all the revenue in most clubs here. We are talking thousands in fees as well as new club members. Good luck but consider joining another club. It might be awhile. Use that club for Chrono, sighting in and standards practice

[jhgtyre]

If safety is the big concern just hang around a couple of high power rifle matches . Buy a little counter so you can keep track of the number of people that get covered by someones muzzle. You'll probably wear the counter out. If asked about the blatant sweeping that goes on they will claim that it is safe because they were using a chamber flag. Of course all this will do is piss 'em off so Rhino's idea is probably the way to go.

-ld

[rhino]

It's how we got AtlantaCC after we got kicked out of Deer Creek for the sixth or seventh time since the mid 1990s.

[Clay1]

Went to the club today to do more work hours and it was the annual renewal. I came around the corner and the blackpowder shooter that I was talking to yesterday was bending the club president's ear about how terrible the IDPA shooter's are. It's really an uphill battle but since most of the members came through the club house today- well over 400, I was able to bend a lot of ears today. There are a couple of bullseye shooters that are up for it and more than a handfull of high power rifle shooters. Just trying to consolidate the pro IDPA power base. Still have a ton of work to do. Thank goodness that I have a different club to shoot almost every weekend. It does drive me crazy that I can't practice at my own home base club. Thought about joining another club but that would make the third club for me and work hours have to done for each of the three clubs. I decided to pass on club number three.

[rhino]

That blackpowder shooter guy sounds like a real piece of work.

You have to wonder what motivates someone to go out of their way to be so spiteful.

[Clay1]

I came around the corner when he was compaining about me and the sport. Yesterday he seemed almost intersted and I thought he was really going to a match with me. He must have already had that conversation with the president since when I asked about him going to the shoot the president said to me, "don't hold your breath". I call this true bigotry and bias.

BSeevers, your statement: "Some of the most Anti-gun people I have met in my life are "Gun" people." You would think we would stand together against the real gun enemy and it's not the other shooters. I'm shocked and dissappointed, but when I take some time to think about it - there really are all kinds of people

I think that I like the get involved and run for office approach. It might take a while, but these old boys can't play forever.

[pisgahrifle]

I visited a local club Saturday with a friend of mine to use their high power range. I new they had a pistol range so I bagged up a few irons just in case. During a lull in the shooting I spoke with our host about doing som e pistol shooting and he gave me a look that seemed to indicate that I'd just turned orange. Turns out that the bullseye shooters there are, well, "different." He told me that they eject folk from the range that shoot a two-handed hold of any kind because it's "dangerous." When I actually went up to check out their range no one so much as spoke to me. I'll shoot rifle at clubs like that and zero my hunting handguns on the rifle range, but that over 55 set can have their Bullseye. It sort of irritates me when we have to fight tooth and nail for the survival of all the shooting sports and then get knifed by "fellow" NRA members.

[revchuck]

This is hardly news. Some shotgunners hold themselves up as the priviledged elite and look down their noses at everyone else, especially handgunners. Shoot, even John (I think) Nowlin once had the attitude that handguns were only used for holding up convenience stores. He's since changed his mind. Most competitive shotgunners in CA supported the state "assault weapons" ban until they found out that it included their autoloading tournament shotguns. Many - though nowhere near all - Perazzi owners don't consider themselves "gunowners" - that's for hoi poloi. They're above that.

[tightloop]

Don't hate me, I used to own a Perazzi....

The geezer factor is super strong in some clubs and when it is, they suffer from the NIH, (Not Invented Here) phobia.....do what you can, but it might take years....

[Paul B]

It may not work in your case, but I can relate 2 experiences on how clubs were changed.

1. My own club was stodgy and dominated by a bench rest and rifle crowd so I literally ran and got on the board. When they still balked at more progressive policies, I got them to put it up for a vote from the membership. After some talking it got done. This was in the early '80's and now this club is one of the most active USPSA clubs in the area.

2. Another club in my area just recently had to have a total coup of the directors to get things changed. The first step was to get enough people joined. This just happened recently and the club now shoots USPSA almost every weekend and steel and even icore.

Best advice, work from within. Best caveat, be sure it can be changed before fencing with windmills. Some clubs literally should not be doing action pistol because of their physical limitations or special leases. Sometimes also the geezers will win and that's why there are other clubs. I belong to 3 so I can practice exactly when and how I want.

[Carmoney]

He told me that they eject folk from the range that shoot a two-handed hold of any kind because it's "dangerous." When I actually went up to check out their range no one so much as spoke to me.

I heard one of those old bullseye pricks say, "It's a handgun, not a handsgun."

No reasoning with people that close-minded.

[shred]

He told me that they eject folk from the range that shoot a two-handed hold of any kind because it's "dangerous."  When I actually went up to check out their range no one so much as spoke to me.

Outshooting them is fun ('specially with an Open gun, and it's good strong-hand practice), but tough.

You can tell 'em you've got one of these newfangled aut-o-mo-bi-le-s and no longer need to hold the reins when you shoot

I heard one of those old bullseye pricks say, "It's a handgun, not a handsgun."

I'd be tempted to say "I thought 1911's were PIS-tols"..

[GRD]

We put up with all this crap when we started our IDPA outfit up here (Maine). We went through the whole thing, "it's unsafe" "it's teaching people to be murderers" "We don't go for that 'quick draw' stuff" (that last one is a direct quote) and on and on and on. We held some 'demonstration shoots' and invited board members down to check it out. That helped. After a couple of those we had one guy, who was/is a big-time club supporter, get up at a meeting and say how he has never seen such a serious emphasis on safety at any shooting event of any kind as that which he saw at our shoot.

That made an impression.

We slowly started winning over converts by showing them the enormous emphasis on safety, safety, safety. My goal was to embarrass the other disciplines for being lax in comparison to us...which was not difficult to do. Our practical shooters were going to be the safest shooters anywhere they went. We were going to set the example and set a bar so high that criticism of us on the safety point would be ridiculous on it's face.

We pretty much ignored the whole "you're teaching people to kill" BS, there were only a few squealing about that and the club president (a LEO) was having none of it. They would say their peice, we would ignore them and then just move on.

The numbers are on your side. IDPA/USPSA is extremely safe compared to the other shooting sports. I don't have those exact numbers, and I know IDPA doesn't (I asked), but USPSA might have something for you. IDPA, when I asked them, told me they had only one reported injury in 7 years. Some guy shot himself in the toe, sent a letter to HQ apologizing for bring shame to the sport and the whole nine yards. The reality is, the practical shooting sports have been around for over 20 years. The safety record is there for everyone to see. So when they say "it's unsafe" you can point to that record and say "you're ignorant and wrong. now sit your sorry ass down."

A big point for us was when the Chief Safety Officer for the club tried to write up a set of safety rules that we would use at our matches. When we made it very clear the reasons why that was a bad idea (beta-testing a unique safety protocol, etc) and explained the time tested and universal safety protocol for practical shooting events (and the rules we run are much tighter than IDPA's...basically USPSA's) and how superior they were to what he was proposing. It was a fine moment. Making the point that the safety protocol we would be using is the same one in use by thousands of practical shooting clubs the world over and has been proven to be effective, it calmed people down.

Also, getting our SO's certified (and having people certified by the NRA to start with) went a long way to proving our commitment. As of the end of our first season, all 11 SO's on our team are certified by IDPA and many of them are NRA instructors, police instructors, etc. The more you can pack your club with 'certs', the more respect your opinion will get from the clueless.

If you can prove the safety point, the other arguments (at least what we found) about being baby killers and all that tend to lose steam. By the end we had people standing up and saying that they were opposed to it because of the extra noise it would add. When the opposition is reduced to complaining about added noise pollution at the shooting range, you've won.

If your club is running NRA pistol classes, you can also bill IDPA as a natural progression for those taking the 'Personal Protection' classes already being given by the club. It gives those people somewhere to go to keep their skills sharp, something to do at the club from that point.

We heard it all and ignored what we could ignore, met what we had to meet head-on, demonstrated the superior safety protocols of practical shooting and outvoted them at every turn.

We packed meetings with people favorable to our cause and won our votes by packing those meetings and just plain out-voting the opposition.

We still get those furrowed-brow looks from some people as they drive past us out on the ranges (which we built) on their way back from sighting in their deer rifles or whatever.

But here we are.

I hope some of this helps.

- Gabe