Jesse Tischauser Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree with Chuck, this match was not anything like Hard as Hell. This match was more physical than last years West Regional Match, but not even close to Hard as Hell. 3GN listened to all the complaining last year and really changed things for the better. The stages were great! Most were 90 second plus, challenging both mentally and physically, and really fun. My understanding is that the Regional Matches will each take on a "local" approach, so each match will be different. Thank you to all the Sponsors (esp Barnes), 3GN, Ken Nelson and the rest of the staff at SUPS - you guys put on a GREAT Match! Some video of 6 of the 8 stages. Thanks for the video! Those stages looked fun as heck!!! What was the longest rifle shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveT-NV Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree with Chuck, this match was not anything like Hard as Hell. This match was more physical than last years West Regional Match, but not even close to Hard as Hell. 3GN listened to all the complaining last year and really changed things for the better. The stages were great! Most were 90 second plus, challenging both mentally and physically, and really fun. My understanding is that the Regional Matches will each take on a "local" approach, so each match will be different. Thank you to all the Sponsors (esp Barnes), 3GN, Ken Nelson and the rest of the staff at SUPS - you guys put on a GREAT Match! Some video of 6 of the 8 stages. Thanks for the video! Those stages looked fun as heck!!! What was the longest rifle shot? 325 yds was the longest rifle target. Their was also the dreaded 150 yard slug shot. Donavon Montross was the CRO on that stage ( and I believe the designer of that stage), he said that ~ 80% of the shooters were able to make that shot, many on their first attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csole Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Thanks to all the staff that made this happen. Great 3gn crew and SUPS crew. Edited February 24, 2015 by csole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csole Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Glad to see folks had fun. The Western is in the books and it is apparent, well liked. The flavor of the regionals is evolving... Like most good things. I look at this year's 3gn Regional matches like NASCAR each track requires a certain skill. And you don't drive a car at Bristol one weekend and show up at Daytona with the same car. This has nothing to do with equipment...more different marksmanship skills in play. We are very excited about 2015 and the Western Regional has really jump strated this season. We have some really fun stage on the list for Texas. Just finished the drawing for a few while heading back to NC. Airplane wifi is nice. Edited February 24, 2015 by csole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMXRACER Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree with Chuck, this match was not anything like Hard as Hell. This match was more physical than last years West Regional Match, but not even close to Hard as Hell. 3GN listened to all the complaining last year and really changed things for the better. The stages were great! Most were 90 second plus, challenging both mentally and physically, and really fun. My understanding is that the Regional Matches will each take on a "local" approach, so each match will be different. Thank you to all the Sponsors (esp Barnes), 3GN, Ken Nelson and the rest of the staff at SUPS - you guys put on a GREAT Match! Some video of 6 of the 8 stages. Nice shooting Steve. Looks like a fun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree with Chuck, this match was not anything like Hard as Hell. This match was more physical than last years West Regional Match, but not even close to Hard as Hell. 3GN listened to all the complaining last year and really changed things for the better. The stages were great! Most were 90 second plus, challenging both mentally and physically, and really fun. My understanding is that the Regional Matches will each take on a "local" approach, so each match will be different. Thank you to all the Sponsors (esp Barnes), 3GN, Ken Nelson and the rest of the staff at SUPS - you guys put on a GREAT Match! Some video of 6 of the 8 stages. Thanks for the video! Those stages looked fun as heck!!! What was the longest rifle shot? 325 yds was the longest rifle target. Their was also the dreaded 150 yard slug shot. Donavon Montross was the CRO on that stage ( and I believe the designer of that stage), he said that ~ 80% of the shooters were able to make that shot, many on their first attempt. I think the 10" plate on stage 1 gave more people trouble than the 150. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It was a pleasure working with 3GN on this match. They put a lot of trust in us. I'll address some questions, admittedly a bit late (I was busy!): - 150 yard slug shot was on 3 18x24 plates as single target. It seemed like side of a car! I upped the size so people wouldn't think it would be better to skip it due to light long range penalties in the 3GN rulebook. - slings... seem to me to be a practical part of carbine usage. From a match designer perspective, they also give me latitude in where my option targets are, and significantly speed up stage reset due to one less gun staging. That gives me more time to have you do what you came to do - run and gun. I also like unloaded, no mag inserted, pistol starts for that reason. If I don't stage any guns, or have a big I'll rehearse the stage in my head make ready, then we have more time for actual fun. - longest shot was 325 yards, at the end of a brisk run and gun stage. It had to be done off a barricade, which some didn't like. I had prone elsewhere, although not many people used it. And there really isn't a big difference in how people run this stuff, the diff is how they feel when they arrive. - Hard as Hell... I wrote about this on FB. But it's really not even in the region of HaH. 620 seconds for the winner. 1300 to 1400 for winner of HaH, 65% more rounds, spinners, 600+ yard shots, with enhanced long range penalties. And Walls of Doom, fast ropes, heavy dummies, eggs, HaHbstacle courses. To me this was a western outlaw style 3 gun, toned down a bit so people wouldn't skip targets due to light penalties. And I'm not complaining at all about that, it was fun, and very challenging. As designers, we had a rule book and we had to push right to the edge of it. Which we did. - spinner - we took it out mainly cause there is no good provision for it in the 3GN rulebook. That plus for a lot of shooters, 30 seconds to try, 30 seconds penalty, would have put them at stage max of 250, which seemed unpleasant. Instead we replaced it with 7 small KDs. - Defining stage. Some say it was the trench stage (1). But the match was lost on stage 3, by the 15+ second leader losing his shotgun ammo on run to the next stage. Things happen. - If I had to do something over again, I'd probably put the side matches in the off schedule and have the classifier we shot plus a 9th stage classifier that was a bit bigger, something to add a little meat in the scoring to that time period. - I'm vey appreciative to Royal Arms for providing flash bangs and breachers. That was fun, and about every 5 minutes we had this resounding "BOOM" echoing all over the range. - On knowing when to stop on long range... My general rule is if I know what's happening, I can adjust, keep trying because I can use that on subsequent targets and pick up time. So it's not a target by target thing. If I'm not getting information, and thus have no adjustment, move on. - When Chuck refers to "mediocre positions" it wasn't a negative thing, it's just they were partially supported, or oddly structured. As targets get closer, at my matches anyway, positions get hinkier. (-: - I was rangemaster for this one. I have a list of rule adjustments recommendations and holes we found. So I'd expect some adjustments, perhaps not right away, but before next year. Anyway, that's all I have time for now. I'm pretty sure that Texas and the other matches will be different, but very good. I don't get the impression that the 3GN folks will accept sub-par stuff. They are shooters and they know what good is. So have fun! I'm sure I'll see you at some of them. Ken N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Ken is exactly right on my meaning. The construction at all of Utah's matches is always excellent. But a standing wall supported position on an 8 inch target at 100 yards is not any easier than a proned out, start of the stage, 300 yard flasher. It's a great way to add some difficulty in rifle shooting with limited space on the bays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Ken, you're spot on with the use of slings and mediocre positions. (And I think in that context mediocre is actually a compliment) This looked like a very fun match. But with flash bangs and breaching rounds, that should be a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHolliday1 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Video looked good, It's snowing in Texas tonight, but weather ought to be good when it's time for SW regional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Studying the scores I found it interesting that first place only won 1 stage and 2nd place only won 1 stages. Id love to see what stage points would have done compared to cumulative time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My little bird has reported back on this match and it sounds like the first 3gn match that was worth attending, I am sorry I missed it. Good for you Ken, many people appreciate your efforts, even those of us who where not fortunate enough to shoot this match. We can only hope that your efforts will get even more support in the future and that 3gn can continue to move more into the mainstream of what matches are supposed to be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Studying the scores I found it interesting that first place only won 1 stage and 2nd place only won 1 stages. Id love to see what stage points would have done compared to cumulative time. Based on my math, and every stage being 100 points. GARCIA, KEITH 734.2296 Points Romero, Rob 718.3228 GIBSON, TRAVIS 689.8105 TATE, ROB 689.1681 ZIEBART, MARK 686.9909 Nelson, Brian 686.1322 SZCZEPKOWSKI, ZACHARY 684.9545 MOURET, JOHN 678.4071 Montross, Donovan 671.5667 Edited February 27, 2015 by ziebart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 What would that look like with stage 2 out of the mix? That one really skews points being so short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Studying the scores I found it interesting that first place only won 1 stage and 2nd place only won 1 stages. Id love to see what stage points would have done compared to cumulative time. Based on my math, and every stage being 100 points. GARCIA, KEITH 734.2296 Points Romero, Rob 718.3228 GIBSON, TRAVIS 689.8105 TATE, ROB 689.1681 ZIEBART, MARK 686.9909 Nelson, Brian 686.1322 SZCZEPKOWSKI, ZACHARY 684.9545 MOURET, JOHN 678.4071 Montross, Donovan 671.5667 What would that look like with stage 2 out of the mix? That one really skews points being so short.Stage two hurt Tate and Montross in a stage points match because they lost a lot of % on the classifier. Since all stages but #1 were under 100 seconds normalizing them all to 100 seconds adds value to the small ones and takes away value from the long ones. Since Keith outperformed Rob on the majority of the shorter stages he gained points and Rob was strong on the longer one so he lost points which caused the flip flop on top. I still prefer time plus penalties normalized to stage points with balanced stage times over cumulative time scoring. Edited February 27, 2015 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 A buddy and I ran thru the stage points versus total time debate from a pure strategy standpoint. If the match is total time, every second counts as much as the rest.....the little burner stages, you just don't want to lose too much, whereas really big stages can decide the match, so you want to nail those the best you can. The most consistent shooter who has reliable equipment will usually win, even if they only win 1-2 stages. Penalties and malfunctions hurt the same no matter what stage they happen on. In a stage points match (assuming all 100pt stages), the big stages are where you want to go conservative and not lose too many points when considering a 90 sec time versus a 110 sec time. The burner stages are were you really need to lay down a fast run and you could determine the match winner if you blow the field away on a classifier.....6.5 sec vs 10 sec is a massive difference in points. The most consistent shooter with reliable equipment will usually win the match...BUT someone like Horner can win 7/9 stages and have malfunctions and issues on 2 stages that wold equate to winning the match by fewer points. Basically, you can recover from malfunctions or penalties on big stages, but they hurt more on small stages. Clear a malfunction on a 100 sec stage and it costs you 5 stage points in an 800-1000 pt match. I don't care which scoring system is used, as long as I know ahead of time in order to make sure my stage plans are made accordingly at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyChris Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I've missed some email correspondence and I can't seem to find. For next weeks Southwest Regional in Marble Falls, how will the squad start times work? It was staggered last year with the early group shooting later the following day and vice versa, is that the same this year or how will it work? Thanks! Edited February 27, 2015 by HeyChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Donald Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I've missed some email correspondence and I can't seem to find. For next weeks Southwest Regional in Marble Falls, how will the squad start times work? It was staggered last year with the early group shooting later the following day and vice versa, is that the same this year or how will it work? Thanks! It's the same as last fall, Saturday morning/Sunday afternoon (squads 1-8), Saturday afternoon/Sunday morning (squads 9-16) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMXRACER Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Sorry if this has already been covered,but I could not find it addressed in the rules. Are coupled rifle magazines allowed in factory division? Thanks, Shane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Sorry if this has already been covered,but I could not find it addressed in the rules. Are coupled rifle magazines allowed in factory division? Thanks, Shane Regional Rule 7.3.3.6 sorta covers it. Indicates in Production rifle single and coupled magazines are not considered a supporting device like a bipod. Looks like you are GTG. Bill Edited March 2, 2015 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Waiting for my connecting flight in Sea-Tac. See Y'all in the morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Donald Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Went up and walked the stages, this should be a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyChris Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Delete Found Edited March 9, 2015 by HeyChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M118LR Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Any updates? Curious minds would like to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlillyskygod Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 https://practiscore.com/results.php?uuid=50A315AD-9688-4CB3-A2F5-2AC9247CC5D2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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