DQ or no DQ? You make the call

[Jesse Tischauser]

Gun was grounded as you see it here.

Is this gun safe or unsafe? If you feel the gun is unsafe should the shooter be DQ'd? If you feel a DQ is warranted should it be a stage DQ or match DQ or simply 20-30 second penalty?

Edited September 20, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[toothandnail]

My personal opinion, SAFE

How ever if I'm the RO, I will have to follow the match rules in reguard to a bullet/cartridge " in " the gun.

Call the RM .

I would hope the RM/MD would take into consideration.

[Gentleman4561]

I don't see any reason why a 2011 shooter should be required to use the thumb safety as long as they have an active grip safety.

In this situation I would treat it as an empty gun due to the chamber being empty, thats very match dependent though.

[blairmckenzie1]

where was it? holstered? safe table? bagged?

if it was between stages it seems like an RO problem.

[joshxdm9]

I had a very similar thing happen in a 3gun match with an ar. The shooter wanted to ground the rifle in a barrel and finish the pistol part of the stage. I called to stop and clear the rifle. He had an empty case stuck with the next round partially chambered. The shooter was very upset that I stopped him but in my opinion he was not grounding a safe rifle. He took it to the MD and was granted a re shoot.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Gun was grounded as you see it here.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Gun was grounded as you see it here. I don't care what the rules of any match say. I'm asking what you think or consider a safely grounded pistol.

[joshxdm9]

My opinion not a safely grounded pistol. Not a stage or match dq but a 20-30 sec penalty.

[MAC702]

Gun was grounded as you see it here. I don't care what the rules of any match say. I'm asking what you think or consider a safely grounded pistol.

I'm new to the rules of grounding guns having only recently gotten in to Multigun, so haven't even tried to look it up yet, so when you put it this way, I personally would not consider it an unsafe condition.

Edited September 20, 2014 by MAC702

[kurtm]

If you ask this question on enough forums you will get the answer you want......somewhere.....somehow.

[Jesse Tischauser]

If you ask this question on enough forums you will get the answer you want......somewhere.....somehow.

There isn't a right answer. It's a discussion. No need to be a disrespectful.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[fishsticks]

Around here, it would totally depend on the match and even stage set-up. Could be anything from a "safe" gun to a match DQ depending on the rule set.

[Solvability]

Mechanically that gun is safe - completely inert without human intervention to clear it and reload it, but our rules tend to be sweeping and inflexible - I would consider that gun safe but I see why we need clear rules that are in fact arbitrary and in this case wrong. Major matches that is a DQ and local matches some flexibility due to the unusual nature.

[joshxdm9]

The pistol was grounded with out the safety engaged. No matter what condition the pistol is in it is still not placed on safe when grounded. Penalty would depend on what club or match you were at.

[RJH]

I'm going with match dq. I've never agreed with the 30 second penalty for a safety infractions. And I believe in consistency of the rules so it doesn't really matter what I or any one other than the RM/MD thinks as long as the rule is applied consistently for all competitors.

[trouble]

As most rules state,,,(empty chamber or on safe). That round is NOT in the chamber.

[joshxdm9]

Empty chamber or cleared ?? I believe it stated cleared or on safe. That is Definatly not clear

[trouble]

Empty chamber or cleared ?? I believe it stated cleared or on safe. That is Definatly not clear

well I guess really most rules say (completely empty gun). In that case, the gun is not empty. Hard call. I say no DQ.

[Stlhead]

Was it grounded in the appropriate location and manner? If so then my opinion is that it is a procedural offense and not a safety infraction so it should incur a penalty, but no DQ. The gun is certainly not going to fire even if the trigger manipulates it's self like a 14 year old boy. If it was on the ground next to the bucket or pointing at the crowd then DQ, but I am not a cool guy match director, just a regular joe twelve pack.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Stlhead

[ericm]

I make the call???

DQ for Jesse.....

20 second bonus for all other shooters.....

MANDATORY DONUTS at every major match.....

The letter "O" to be stricken from the alphabet.....

ericm

[Doug H.]

"Gun was grounded as you see it here.

Is this gun safe or unsafe? If you feel the gun is unsafe should the shooter be DQ'd? If you feel a DQ is warranted should it be a stage DQ or match DQ or simply 20-30 second penalty?"

So is this theoretical or did this happen in a match? I'm betting you got DQed and want someone to say you should not have been DQed, but I'll play the game with you.

1. Is the gun safe? Yes, the gun is not dangerous and will not fire in the condition the you show above.

2. Is a DQ warranted? You know as well as anyone that it depends on the match. If the rules of the match say DQ then it's a DQ. The gun is clearly not empty or on safe. In the past I have seen other shooters DQed in similar circumstances .

3. Stage DQ or 20-30 second penalty? Many matches and even USPSA have allowed a penalty instead of a DQ for guns in the condition that you show as long as they are in a safe retention device, dump barrel, bucket etc., but again that depends on the match.

My call is I enforce the rules of the match as written. If you don't like the rules, don't attend the match.

Doug

[Benelli Chick]

Our rules say completely empty or on safe IF it has an external safety.

Is it a safe gun? Yep, as long as no one touches it. Is it in the proscribed abandoned condition? No. If it had one in the chamber, it would be the same. Not abandoned correctly.

Is is a completely empty gun? Not if the round doesn't fall out when you pick it up.

At RM3G, it would be the 30 second procedural. But, we're one of those annoying outlaw matches that do not have specific rules to cover every possible situation that any one can think of.

The reason I say it would be different if the round fell out when you picked it up, is then that IS an empty gun. A loose round rolling around in the mag well is not "in" the gun. To be "In" the gun, the round must be in the mechanism of the pistol, in the mag that is seated, or in the chamber, or right behind the chamber in the slide.

So, ammo in, not on safe, in dump barrel, muzzle down...30 second penalty.

But, as Doug has said, depends on the match. I know a match where a gun with no ammo in it at all, but an empty magazine in was a DQ as well... And trust me, it was a safe gun!

[joshxdm9]

Empty chamber or cleared ?? I believe it stated cleared or on safe. That is Definatly not clear

well I guess really most rules say (completely empty gun). In that case, the gun is not empty. Hard call. I say no DQ.

I agree no DQ but minimum should be a penalty.

[SonOfSpartans]

Here is my question. Would the mechanism of the pistol matter to the call. Just the round like that in a Glock vs a 1911?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Pretend you're the RM. It's your match. You wrote the rules not IDPA, USPSA or 3-Gun Nation. You make the call...