Doug H. Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Pretend you're the RM. It's your match. You wrote the rules not IDPA, USPSA or 3-Gun Nation. You make the call... I could write the rules to say anything. I am the RM at my match and I did write the rules. If you put an unsafe gun in a safe location at our match it would be a 30 second penalty. That doesn't make it right, just makes it my way. I think that as long as the dump locations have been made safe by the match designers then even if the gun fires it will not be dangerous to the shooter, spectators or staff. This may not be the case at all matches or locations. Unfortunately it is impossible to write rules that cover every possibility or foolish act of all shooters and that's why the rules of any match aren't perfect. Erring on the side of safety is why we have rules they way they are. Sometimes people get DQed for stuff that really was not unsafe but you can't start changing the rules during a match, it's not fair to the other shooters, like the ones who took the time to clear their pistols properly or actually put on the safety. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) I am. I did. I made the call. The gun was not left in the proscribed condition. It is not on safe. It is not empty. There is a round in the mechanism. Whether it's half in the chamber, or jammed behind it, doesn't matter. 30 second procedural for improper abandonment. Personally, I usually put the safety on, even it it's empty...I can. Then I would've noticed something was amiss and remedied the situation. No penalty for me, except the extra time...which would've been less than 30 seconds. Denise Edited September 21, 2014 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 My only concern is if that is a DQ for a single action but not a striker gun, the match is not equal to both shooters. So if I had my way I would write the rules as "pistol empty" for dump. Then both the striker gun AND the 1911 shooter would HAVE to clear that. If not. Stage DQ. There. I took a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 With the new parameters DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) Here is my question. Would the mechanism of the pistol matter to the call. Just the round like that in a Glock vs a 1911? Bingo. You can ground a Glock that is ready to fire, but you can't ground a jammed-up 1911 that has no round in the chamber? Can't you ground a 1911 that still has the magazine in it, but the slide locked back? In which case, I would apply that condition to this pistol. I just got into Multigun and am shooting in the Heavy Metal Limited division. My plan for grounding my shotgun is to pump it open and dump it. Do I have to engage the safety if I do this? Does it matter if there are rounds in the magazine? If pumped open, it would put a round into the action, ready to chamber. Wouldn't this be similar? Edited September 21, 2014 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Most matches...rounds in the magazine of a shotgun, safety not engaged is a penalty of some sort. Could be a match DQ depending on the match. I understand the point about the 1911 vs. Glock. It is a conundrum. I have no good answer. I would like to penalize the Glock for that kind of sloppiness as well, but...as Doug said, no ones' rules are perfect. They are the best we can come up with. Glock vs. 1911 - not fair. But, sometimes life...say it with me...It's just NOT FAIR! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Pretend you're the RM. It's your match. You wrote the rules not IDPA, USPSA or 3-Gun Nation. You make the call... Match DQ. As I continually try to get people to see, the layered safety approach is what prevents accidents. To remove a layer, you buy liability. Anyone who writes rules should understand this, unfortunately many of the people writing rules, and reducing the layers, have no idea what they are doing, have not conducted fault tree analysis and are increasing risk through ignorance. It is also clear that some do get it, but fewer and fewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therealkoop Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I would have to go with whatever the rules state, regardless if its widely considered to be "safe". If it was my rulebook, it probably wouldnt have any specific connotations for this occurance. It would likely be a DQ because there is ammo in the gun, and the gun isnt on safe. No other call to make with those rules. An empty chamber on a rifle or shotgun with ammo in the magazine and the gun off safe isnt going to fire either, but it still commonly results in DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 When a gun is abandoned with ammo anywhere in/on it, there are an infinite number of permutations of gun + ammo that lie on a continuum from "totally safe" to "totally unsafe". The rules have to be written to CLEARLY and OBJECTIVELY describe where on that continuum the shooter is transitioning from "acceptably safe" to "unacceptably unsafe", and such rules have to be applicable for any of the three guns we use. The problem with the example shown is that, although it is clear the gun cannot shoot as it is, and probably could not easily be made to shoot, a slight change could make it much more likely to shoot. Consider, for example, a similar malfunction happening with a shotgun - safety on FIRE and a live shotshell on the gun's carrier holding the bolt back by friction alone... the slightest bump could allow the bolt to close on the shell and make the gun hot. Unfortunately, it is not reasonable to expect the RO to make such a subjective call, and this is the conundrum the writers of our rules face. As for this specific example, my call would be that the gun has been abandoned in an UNSAFE condition, and the shooter should be subject to whatever sanctions apply at this particular match. This is a classic example of a malfunction that could easily have been rectified, but the shooter was pushing too hard and tipped over from "safe" to "unsafe" territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Jesse, I am only being me. I know you have asked this on several forums....seen it with my own eyes. You have asked this question in a way that seems to imply you are specifically looking for a certain type of answer...... it is completely safe and the rules are stupid. You can ask this question in many ways, but it's answer will always be in the rules of any particular match that it happened at in the constraints of the GAME! My point was that if you are looking for validation you will get it somewhere, somehow. The reason it seems this way is that you keep asking the same question, but you keep changeing the constraints. I.E. "is it a D.Q.?....."I don't care what the rules are, is it safe?"..... "your the R.M. you make the call". Don't take every disagreement as a personal attack, it makes discussions with you very tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Letter of the law yes DQ but spirit of the law no and I would not have DQd you. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman4561 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Pretend you're the RM. It's your match. You wrote the rules not IDPA, USPSA or 3-Gun Nation. You make the call... Safe, no issue. Continue the match as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 Jesse, I am only being me. I know you have asked this on several forums....seen it with my own eyes. You have asked this question in a way that seems to imply you are specifically looking for a certain type of answer...... it is completely safe and the rules are stupid. You can ask this question in many ways, but it's answer will always be in the rules of any particular match that it happened at in the constraints of the GAME! My point was that if you are looking for validation you will get it somewhere, somehow. The reason it seems this way is that you keep asking the same question, but you keep changeing the constraints. I.E. "is it a D.Q.?....."I don't care what the rules are, is it safe?"..... "your the R.M. you make the call". Don't take every disagreement as a personal attack, it makes discussions with you very tedious. I just thought it was a very interesting case that would make a good topic of discussion. I think it's the a Range Masters job to ensure a safe match by interpreting the rules and make calls such as this. As someone said it's impossible to write rules for every possible scenario. I really like the fact that so many of the major matches RM's have chimed in with their take on the topic which let's us shooters know exactly how they would handle this situation if it are uses at their matches. You yourself have posted twice with no discernible opinion other than you like to try to argue with me for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) Jesse, you yourself have yet to proffer an opinion, so how in the world can we be arguing??? All I have done is make a statement.....if you are looking for a particular answer, and you ask your question in enough places and enough ways you WILL get the answer YOU are looking for. It is a very straightforward statement, and is not argumentative......IT IS A STATEMENT! Edited September 21, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveG Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 If the gun was dumped because the shooter didn't want to clear the malfunction and move to another gun, I'm going what ever the rules say for an unsafe gun. But I think it is an unsafe gun in this condition anway and what ever the rules say for an unsafe in in the dump bin should be followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) Jesse, you yourself have yet to proffer an opinion, so how in the world can we be arguing??? All I have done is make a statement.....if you are looking for a particular answer, and you ask your question in enough places and enough ways you WILL get the answer YOU are looking for. It is a very straightforward statement, and is not argumentative......IT IS A STATEMENT!You're right Kurt we aren't argueing you're just being well, you.Personally I wouldn't do like you did at ProAm as the RM or MD a few years ago. When you saw that the shooters was a friend and a top guy and therefore not DQ them even though their gun was grounded unsafe. Edited September 22, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhunt91 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 HEY YOU 2 CHILL OUT I don't know about yall but we came here for a discusion not a pissing contest.I know neither of you personally. But seriously as a new 3 gunner coming up quite fast actions like this put a bad taste in my mouth. Jessee stop blasting ppl on the forums for nothing. its his opinon let him have it no need to be a internet warrior. **that being said I still think your a awesome shooter and wish I was as good/to meet you someday.** Other dude dont stroke the fire more than its worth that is all Dakota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 And on another note, I don't recall you ever being personally present when I have made any decision about this type of thing. If you can't remember if I was MD or one of two R.Ms nor the year, perhaps you don't have a good memory of an alleged event that you weren't personally present for. Anyway you do have a unique way of making your assertions that the people you represent should be proud of....go green! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) It should matter IF the safety is capable of being engaged. When out of battery, the safety cannot be engaged. Can a 1911 be dumped at slide-lock if a loaded magazine is in it? If a Glock can be dumped while fully loaded, can it be dumped if out of battery? Edited September 21, 2014 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) And on another note, I don't recall you ever being personally present when I have made any decision about this type of thing. If you can't remember if I was MD or one of two R.Ms nor the year, perhaps you don't have a good memory of an alleged event that you weren't personally present for. Anyway you do have a unique way of making your assertions that the people you represent should be proud of....go green! I wasnt there I heard about it and like all good controversies it was brought up hear and you confirmed it to our amazement. Your post went something like this "I didn't DQ Daniel for a hot shotgun with the safety off because I like Daniel but I would have DQ'd you." I'm Sure someone remembers the thread and can find it. It too us a great exams of how not to make decision as a. RM/MD. Edited September 21, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhunt91 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Gah this is why Im begining to hate this place. WHY MUST WE ARGUE amungst ourselves GROW UP ppl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) A nice bit of sarcasm you took out of context and re-posted as fact. I really expect a much higher level of aspersions from you Jesse, but I guess if thats all you got you have to go with it.......the "other dude". Edited September 21, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) Situation: Top shooter (winning the match) with shell stuck half way out from tube on carrier, safety not on. R.O. and C.R.O. also claim hand was swept durring shotgun abandonment and pistol draw. Upon arrival R.O. and C.R.O. questioned about hand sweep, both finally decided they weren't real sure about sweep. Result...stage D.Q. as per Pro Am rules on unsafe abandonment enforced by R.M......alias..."other dude". Top shooter didn't win match.....look it up! 2012 Pro Am Stage 5 Latter in a fine little joust between "awesome shooter" and "other dude", "awesome shooter" runs out this fine little your a bad R.M. and a real low life form. In a fit of jovial sarcasm "other dude" basically say to "awesome shooter" what was typed above by "awesome shooter"......and now...IT,S BAAAACK! Rules were followed to a T, but never let facts get in the way of a great story, especially when it sounds soooo dastardly. Edited September 21, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimpickens Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Jesse, I am not sure if this happened to you or not. That said I was at FNH this weekend and a shooter in my squad was DQed for abandoning his pistol this way. ROs were stumped on the call. MD came over and made the decision. Shooter handled the situation like a true professional. Safe gun...yes. Against the rules at FNH...yes. Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) Situation: Top shooter (winning the match) with shell stuck half way out from tube on carrier, safety not on. R.O. and C.R.O. also claim hand was swept durring shotgun abandonment and pistol draw. Upon arrival R.O. and C.R.O. questioned about hand sweep, both finally decided they weren't real sure about sweep. Result...stage D.Q. as per Pro Am rules on unsafe abandonment enforced by R.M......alias..."other dude". Top shooter didn't win match.....look it up! 2012 Pro Am Stage 5 Latter in a fine little joust between "awesome shooter" and "other dude", "awesome shooter" runs out this fine little your a bad R.M. and a real low life form. In a fit of jovial sarcasm "other dude" basically say to "awesome shooter" what was typed above by "awesome shooter"......and now...IT,S BAAAACK! Rules were followed to a T, but never let facts get in the way of a great story, especially when it sounds soooo dastardly. Wow great to hear the actual story for once which was exactly what I had heard now that yourselves us relive it. Top shoot talked his way out of a safety violation. It happens! The real issue there is the unsafe gun that don't fire just like the pictures I posted above. In that situation and those rules it was a stage DQ. I'm asking here for everyone to voice there opinion. Obviously we have a lot of interest in this little thread where I'm trying to find my answer. Edited September 21, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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