Half Day Match format vs. Alternating Squads

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is another 3 day 9 stage format which should be a breeze to follow. since your sunrise is at 7:15 Am and Sunset is at 8:00 pm.

Squad size 12, 225ish shooters in the match.

3 Day 9 Stage Half Day Match Schedule.pdf

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

3 Day 10 Stage Half Day Match Schedule.pdf

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

I'm gonna catch crap for saying so........but I'm with Jesse on this one.

The 3 day half day format looks perfect to me for a 10 stage match. I personally would opt to check out vendors, side matches, and hang out with shooters for lunch/dinner after shooting each half day.

ProAm vs. Regional....same location 1 week apart. I spent a lot of time hanging out with friends at the regional and spent a lot of time hanging out at stages at the ProAm. Both matches were fun, but the Regional was easier to justify for next year if they are back to back again.

[kanek]

I hate waiting around. I'd prefer the 1/2 day. Nothing worse than 3 hours inbetween stages.

[Novie]

I have never shot a match with the 1/2 day format, but I come to shoot not wait. I would like the 1/2 day format, then go do something else for the rest of the day.

[Stlhead]

Jessie, you need to build 5 minutes into the schedule between each stage for moving and to allow the RO's a chance to hit the refresher.

[DocMedic]

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

15 shooter squads at 70mins per stage gives you less then 5 minutes shooter turn around times... I hope the stages are not too long. or that Stage reset isn't going to be an issue.

Acctually even less as I didn't even consider stage walk through + stage brief.

Also is the Staff + RO's switching out Mid day, or are they staying for the full day?

Edited September 16, 2014 by DocMedic

[The Donald]

I hate waiting around. I'd prefer the 1/2 day. Nothing worse than 3 hours inbetween stages.

Half day or alternating, main thing is to keep the match moving. Having well trained S.O.s to clear firearms when done, help stage and have the correct gun near where it needs to be staged. Limiting walk throughs and sight pictures.

Kind of takes all the fun out of a match when you start shooting at 8:30 AM and you finish your 5th stage in the dark.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

15 shooter squads at 70mins per stage gives you less then 5 minutes shooter turn around times... I hope the stages are not too long. or that Stage reset isn't going to be an issue.

Acctually even less as I didn't even consider stage walk through + stage brief.

Also is the Staff + RO's switching out Mid day, or are they staying for the full day?

A downhill stage design should allow clearing of firearms and resetting/pasting targets as the shooter progresses down the COF.....which would really help.

[RiggerJJ]

I have been to a couple (not sure exactly, maybe 3) matches that did 1/2 day schedules this year. I got screwed on 2 of them because of being on the PM group on the 1st day. The 1st day will almost always goes late, so the PM group's last stage will probably be in the dark because of planning for perfect timing instead of building in "Murphy" time. Trying to cram too much in too little time. It takes time to change kit in between stages, load mags, etc which you really shouldn't be doing it when your squad is shooting because you should be resetting. It takes time to travel to the next stage. What if it rains? everything slows down if it rains... NONE of this stuff is usually built into the schedule, but it absolutely needs to be.

15 shooter squads in 70 minutes in a 3 gun match? Pretty aggressive, and it means ALL the stages will have to be short burner stages. Not my cup of tea. 4 stages per day per squad are not out of the question, but 15 shooters need at least 90 minutes (6 minute turn per shooter), AND a short 15 minute break for kit change and travel and shooters brief and walk thru. To do 8 squads a day at that rate, you are going to need a total stage time of 8x105=840 minutes, or 14 hours. That's starting at 0700 and finishing at 2100! Unless the match is in the extreme north in the middle of the summer when the sun rises at 0500 and sets at 2200, some are going to be shooting in the dark.

So back to the 4 stages per day per squad. 12 shooter squads are easier to manage, and with 6 minute turns, requires 72 minutes, plus the 15 for squad turn, equals 87, round the last 3 minutes up to a 90 minute turn per squad. times 8 squads a day, equals 12 hours. more manageable if its a summer match, but still no disaster factor or "murphy" built in. Add more time for everything if it turns into a mudfest or something else major.

So that leaves us with 3 stages per squad per day as the most manageable, for the most part. If its a berm match with stages right next to each other, pretty easy to do 1/2 days. But add more travel time, then things can get dicy. do it on a range that has the distance between stages measured in MILES, and I think the better answer is every other slot instead of 1/2 days. I would much rather get done early on a full day schedule, than be shooting in the dark on 1/2 days...

eta; and if its 3 stages per day per squad, you can get the average shoot times up to around 100 seconds where 3 gun stages should be, instead of little dumbed down burner stages...

jmho...

jj

Edited September 16, 2014 by RiggerJJ

[Jesse Tischauser]

What if we just had a major match with 125-150 shooter instead of 250-300.

I'd pay double and skip one other match for that!

[Benelli Chick]

What if we just had a major match with 125-150 shooter instead of 250-300.

I'd pay double and skip one other match for that!

Are you planning to have smaller squads then??

Because I get requests for like...20 people on a squad as it is! Everyone wants to shoot with everyone!

Smaller matches do make it a lot easier. Gen3 - wasn't full and kind of finished on time for half the people...

But, then you turn people away...

I don't know! You always seem to want to pay more for less shooting time!

I'm sure it's just me, but as a match director/organizer/whatever I throw a match not to charge what the market will allow, but to bring my 3-Gun friends a match they have fun at, for a reasonable price...one that lets me break even, but doesn't totally block out families and couples because of high prices!

I just think there are different reasons people are shooting 3-Gun.

EricM and I are there for the shooting, but also for the social aspect! The match IS the vacation. Not the JOB, in the middle of the vacation! But, I don't go to matches hoping to break even on prizes either...because that would be a dream for this old lady! EricM gets some good prizes, but I've seen him at matches with no prize tables having fun as well!

Just different kinds of folks! SO different kinds of matches to fit the differences. You go to half day speed fests, I go to EVENTS that I can socialize and shoot for a decent amount of time and just enjoy being out shooting.

Just my $1.53

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jessie, you need to build 5 minutes into the schedule between each stage for moving and to allow the RO's a chance to hit the refresher.

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

15 shooter squads at 70mins per stage gives you less then 5 minutes shooter turn around times... I hope the stages are not too long. or that Stage reset isn't going to be an issue.

Acctually even less as I didn't even consider stage walk through + stage brief.

Also is the Staff + RO's switching out Mid day, or are they staying for the full day?

You guys are correct. I used Larry's schedule from FNH as a guideline. He had 3 stages AM and 3 stages PM per day. Last two years we had a bunch of extra time and finished early. Last year we squeezed in an extra stage on Saturday to beat rain on Sunday. I rolled the dice with the fifth stage in the AM on day one at GIIIG. We decided we wanted to give the shooters more shooting but we had a few squads that paid the price running late.

Next year the match will fill and four stages per day is it. Should be easy if Mother Nature cooperates. If not we have Sunday as our contingency day.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

What if we just had a major match with 125-150 shooter instead of 250-300.

I'd pay double and skip one other match for that!

I don't know! You always seem to want to pay more for less shooting time!

I want to pay more for less non-shooting time. And for having people reset stages for us. Edited September 17, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Benelli Chick]

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

Works fine if all goes well, but it was VERY DARK at 630 this year because of clouds!

You are also using 90 minutes minimum for travel time which could get you done before 5pm, if you did every other, and then EVERYONE could go have a nice, well timed dinner.

I know you hate to wait, but IF you take that 15 minutes travel time into consideration and add a 10 minute bathroom, regearing break, then with your 70 minutes squad times, you would only have to wait 45 minutes at the most, if you just ran right over to the next stage.

With the one on, one off, if you don't have a weird backed up stage, shooter's brief should start right on time for almost every squad.

Yep, you have to wait while the squad in front of you finishes, and I know in the heat, that can be exhausting, too! I like to sit in the car with the air-conditioning running when it's really hot!

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Let's be honest here..........if the match is really good, you aren't going to abandon it because of the half day vs. all day format? I really enjoy half day format as a shooter, but haven't been on the side of the MD/RM when running it.

My match schedule next year will be primarily based upon which matches impressed me this year, intrigued me, or I regretted not being able to shoot this year. It may be a 50/50 split on format next year.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is the 3 day 10 stage format we were considering. I think it is very doable if you want to run 10 stages and 3 days.

Squad size 15 shooters, 300 shooters total in the match. Plenty of time on day 3 to shoot additional stages if weather gets you on the first two days.

Works fine if all goes well, but it was VERY DARK at 630 this year because of clouds!

You are also using 90 minutes minimum for travel time which could get you done before 5pm, if you did every other, and then EVERYONE could go have a nice, well timed dinner.

I know you hate to wait, but IF you take that 15 minutes travel time into consideration and add a 10 minute bathroom, regearing break, then with your 70 minutes squad times, you would only have to wait 45 minutes at the most, if you just ran right over to the next stage.

With the one on, one off, if you don't have a weird backed up stage, shooter's brief should start right on time for almost every squad.

Yep, you have to wait while the squad in front of you finishes, and I know in the heat, that can be exhausting, too! I like to sit in the car with the air-conditioning running when it's really hot!

I don't like waiting in the 20 items or less lane at Walmart and I damn sure don't like waiting in the heat or a POS rental car. As for a nice dinner I'll trade that for a nice morning to sleep in and a nice afternoon on the pontoon boat with my buddy's that I see once or twice a year.

Both squads get an early or a late day. So having a late day that gets rainy and cloudy and you can't see perfectly or having an early day that is foggy and you can't see perfectly is luck of the draw.

Let's be honest here..........if the match is really good, you aren't going to abandon it because of the half day vs. all day format? I really enjoy half day format as a shooter, but haven't been on the side of the MD/RM when running it.

My match schedule next year will be primarily based upon which matches impressed me this year, intrigued me, or I regretted not being able to shoot this year. It may be a 50/50 split on format next year.

There are way too many good matches now with half day format. I'm not going to fly to anything that's not half day anymore. The only shoot and sit matches I'll be shooting in 2015 are fallen brethren and Arkansas section because they are closer than most club matches for me.

I'm not saying shoot and sit matches are bad. Different strokes for different folks. It's good to have choices!

My favorite will change when there is match that starts at 9:00 and finished at 2:00.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[toothandnail]

My favorite will change when there is match that starts at 9:00 and finished at 2:00.

That's our monthly match, Start shooting at 9:00, shoot 5 stages, done by 2:00.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I'm leaning harder towards half day matches as well......but what I said rings true. If the match is awesome, I'm still gonna put it on the schedule if there's no conflict.

[CJW]

FNH was the first place I shot a half-day match, and I loved it. What really helps there is that the stages are in groups of three to a Zone, and the Zones are close enough that there is very little down time moving from stage to stage.

I can see where you start to run into issues at, say Rockcastle. Okay, you can have one Zone in the bays and one in Thunder Valley...but everybody likes to shoot Cowboy Town and the Bath House, so how do you group those into a Zone with anything? There's be a potential stage backup just waiting for people to get from one to the other.

I am not saying it is impossible, and I am definitely saying I prefer half-day to shoot-and-wait, but it is clear that the physical layout will play into how easily half-day can be pulled off.

[shooterrdy]

I like Half Day at Major matches. Full day depending on Range and time of year some ranges are much easier to get around on than others size of bays, stage round count, stage props all make a difference this is a issue that can make or break a shooter, Fatigue is a killer some of us old guys have bad ankles or backs and stage reset takes its toll.

[Moltke]

Part of competing is knowing yourself right? I'm a morning person and an introvert, so spending all day on a gun range with shooting spread out over 12 hours while interacting with people is one of the most exhausting things I regularly do. I have really liked the half day formats at the majors I've shot because I prefer waking up and shooting fresh in the morning, switched "on" for a few hours, then be done for the day. I don't sleep in and don't like standing around all day waiting so the 1/2 day format is convenient because you can plan accordingly. I have also really come to like that extra time to check out vendors, shoot side matches, recon the next 1-3 courses of fire; OR take my wife somewhere if she comes along. I only wish I could always shoot mornings because I'd probably perform better too.

[Bryan 45]

I like full days w alternating squads.

I like 8 or 9 + 1 maximum capacity shotguns for non-open.

I like paper targets w heads.

I like bourbon, beer, steak, Spies Like Us, country girls, and old dirty jeeps.

Sorry, got carried away there.

[Dan Sierpina]

I like full days w alternating squads.

I like 8 or 9 + 1 maximum capacity shotguns for non-open.

I like paper targets w heads.

I like bourbon, beer, steak, Spies Like Us, country girls, and old dirty jeeps.

Sorry, got carried away there.

Bryan,

Get your butt out to RM3G and shoot He Man. The bourbon, beer and steak are all pluses!

[Jim Norman]

I have been to a couple (not sure exactly, maybe 3) matches that did 1/2 day schedules this year. I got screwed on 2 of them because of being on the PM group on the 1st day. The 1st day will almost always goes late, so the PM group's last stage will probably be in the dark because of planning for perfect timing instead of building in "Murphy" time. Trying to cram too much in too little time. It takes time to change kit in between stages, load mags, etc which you really shouldn't be doing it when your squad is shooting because you should be resetting. It takes time to travel to the next stage. What if it rains? everything slows down if it rains... NONE of this stuff is usually built into the schedule, but it absolutely needs to be.

15 shooter squads in 70 minutes in a 3 gun match? Pretty aggressive, and it means ALL the stages will have to be short burner stages. Not my cup of tea. 4 stages per day per squad are not out of the question, but 15 shooters need at least 90 minutes (6 minute turn per shooter), AND a short 15 minute break for kit change and travel and shooters brief and walk thru. To do 8 squads a day at that rate, you are going to need a total stage time of 8x105=840 minutes, or 14 hours. That's starting at 0700 and finishing at 2100! Unless the match is in the extreme north in the middle of the summer when the sun rises at 0500 and sets at 2200, some are going to be shooting in the dark.

So back to the 4 stages per day per squad. 12 shooter squads are easier to manage, and with 6 minute turns, requires 72 minutes, plus the 15 for squad turn, equals 87, round the last 3 minutes up to a 90 minute turn per squad. times 8 squads a day, equals 12 hours. more manageable if its a summer match, but still no disaster factor or "murphy" built in. Add more time for everything if it turns into a mudfest or something else major.

So that leaves us with 3 stages per squad per day as the most manageable, for the most part. If its a berm match with stages right next to each other, pretty easy to do 1/2 days. But add more travel time, then things can get dicy. do it on a range that has the distance between stages measured in MILES, and I think the better answer is every other slot instead of 1/2 days. I would much rather get done early on a full day schedule, than be shooting in the dark on 1/2 days...

eta; and if its 3 stages per day per squad, you can get the average shoot times up to around 100 seconds where 3 gun stages should be, instead of little dumbed down burner stages...

jmho...

jj

Finally a shooter that can add and subtract! FNH just ran with 6 squads a day, 3 Am, 3PM On our stage turns were between 4-1/2 and 6 minutes. per shooter. That was with 8 Staff on the stage! we reset everything, all the shooters did was shoot! And we ran LONG! We managed to get one extra squad through on one day which allowed us to finish up on Saturday about 1-1/2 hours early so we could clean up and tear down before the awards and not have to return on Sunday.

If the stages are spread out even a little, if the stages are mostly 3 guns, if there is any setting and taping by the shooters 12 on a squad is about the maximum.

You need to figure 6 minutes minimum per shooter, 10 minutes for a walk-through, 5 minutes for the brief and Q&A and time to travel between stages, 10 min and time for the pre-load another 5 minutes..This works out to 102 minutes or 12 minutes longer than scheduled. Most of the time you don't need the whole 10 minutes to travel and you don't use the whole 5 minutes for Q&A and occasionally you don't need the whole 10 for the walk-through. BUT add in rain, mud, additional distance and you can easily get screwed over.

The one-on, one-off schedule works potentially a little better. Everyone is on the range all day, sorry to the local attractions, but we now have 90 minutes to travel and pre-load. This is time that can be subtracted from the 102 minutes above. So we can now MOST likely even do the stage brief while the previous squad is clearing off their last shooter.

It is very important to not over sell a match. Adding just one shooter per squad can destroy the match timing. Look at the venue where you are shooting, are there time constraints? I.E., what is the earliest shot fired time? latest shot? Is Sunday different than the rest of the week? When is sunset at the time of year you are holding your match? All of this needs to be factored in. How seasoned are your ROs? How many per stage? are they going to burn out during the match becasue there are only three and one can't do more then manage the back end? This might work in a pit based pistol match, but on Natural Terrain you need to be able to spell your ROS no more than two squads without a rest.

Just my thoughts. And yup, we got burned last week at a club match. we figured we'd be picking up by headlight, but we didn't count on a couple squads having a higher number of newer 3-gun ROs and shooters. Clearance time for them ran too long. We might have made it with either one less stage or a different mix of shooters. Stuff happens to everyone. Even a heavy overcast vs clear skies can cost you an hour of shoot-able daylight.