mildot1 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I pulled a boner today RO'ing Shooter comes to the line, faces down range. I give the make ready command, while he is doing it something else caught my attention( I cannot rmember what it was and I am usually very observant at watching the LAMD process) wrong but never the less I did it. Shooter turns and faces uprange and I am standing off to the side because he is a right handed shooter and assume he will turn that way. At "Are You ready" he removes his hand and reaches down to his holster area and I here a click, mind you I am already a little freaked that I was not watching as closely as I should of and I hear a click. I said "stop, did you just engage your safety" he responded "yes". I then informed him that placing the gun in the holster(single action semi auto) was a DQ offense and I was forced to DQ him. He said fine but he had been allowed to do it at the "5" previous matches he had shot. At the next stage he and another shooter approached me and explained that he had only been unlocking his DAA holster when I stopped him. I responded that I asked him if he had just engaged his safety and that he had responded "YES" and that was the reason for the DQ. Upon listening to both His statement that he considered the holster lock to be a "safety" I personally took him back to the previous stage and allowed him to shoot it and apologized for the mis-communication. He later stopped me and said that I could have asked the question in a different manner? I responded that the USPSA considers the "thumb safety on a 1911 type firearm to be the only "SAFETY" on the gun. How would you have done it differently?????? Mildot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Not sure you should. Last thing you want to do is start modifying what you say from how the rule book is written to do your own interpertative safety thing ... As a new shooter it is his responsibility to understand the rule book and definitions contained within. What next? A new definition of up range and down range? Or maybe "fault lines"? Or how about "break the 180" .... At the time you DQed him he should have asked some questions which would have solved the problem right there, he just assumed he knew what you were talking about and only after talking with someone else did he figure it out .... Edited August 10, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The shooter answered the question incorrectly. He wasn't engaging a safety he was making an adjustment to his equipment. You made the call based on his answer. I do think it's great you guys talked about it and the DQ was overturned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I agree, you did everything right. Kudos! The shooter answered incorrectly and that is not your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 20-20 hindsight -- could have just asked "what was that?" The question as you posed it is a little leading but not out of line. However, I think you did everything just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 You shouldn't DQ someone for something that you didn't see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 You shouldn't DQ someone for something that you didn't see Really? So, if an RO hears something suspicious during the walkthrough, asks the squad about it, and one of the shooters reports that he just drew his gun from a kydex holster, we should let the competitor continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Yes really. I'm not dq'ing someone unless I am 100% sure, that means I have to see it and I'm certainly not going off what someone said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 You did the right thing with the original DQ. You heard what you thought was a safety being engaged or disengaged while in the holster and the shooter supported that thought with his own admission. It was only right that the shooter be allowed to continue shooting once the miscommunication was understood. Although, the RM should have been consulted and the RM should be the one to reverse the DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Our sport is one that requires hearing protection. That protection can make it difficult to always hear the actual statement used, and we will at times respond to what we think we heard. You asked if he had just engaged his safety. His answer is what got him DQ'ed. It is possible he did not hear what you said. It is possible he heard the actual question and misunderstood what you were asking. We do not know. It sounds like this was his 6th match, so he should be a relatively new shooter. It is possible he is still learning our terminology. That said what you did is correct. He volunteered information that lead to his being DQ'ed. His later explanation put doubt in your mind and you overturned your DQ. It could have gone either way. You could have just as easily upheld your DQ based on the original question asked and answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 For some reason I'm not able to respond directly to your post, Poppa Bear. Anyhow, and respectfully, I don't think your last statement is correct in that I don't think you can DQ someone for using the wrong terminology, or not having an understanding of the common terminology used in USPSA. For example, what if the shooter was a non English speaking foreign competitor. I could see how a foreign competitor could find themselves in the same situation, especially since the word safety is not part of the internationally used and recognized range commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 In no way would I say that the call is 100% black or white. As an RO we have to make judgement calls based on what we see and hear. We also do not have time to play 20 questions as we try to determine if the competitor fully understood what is happening and why. We will sometimes get it wrong, but I hope that the great majority of the time we get it right. If I were the RO I would have to determine if the competitors knowledge of the English language was sufficient to fully understand what is being said. If it is typical to the shooters I deal with in my club the answer would be I do not know if any of them actually speak anything BUT English. That said if I was dealing with a new shooter I would make sure that they understood what the question was by repeating it with some slightly different words ie. "So you just now put your thumb safety on now? And not before you put in in your holster?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 why would he engage the safety on his holster when the timer is about to go off? he should be disengaging it so he can draw the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 why would he engage the safety on his holster when the timer is about to go off? he should be disengaging it so he can draw the gun. He forgot to unlock his holster. It was after "are you ready" so it was still legal for him to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) Sometime people ( shooters ) do as they are told ! My point was at a match start position facing up range hands above shoulders . So newer shooter comes to the line facing up range looking at the RO,he says make ready,shooter goes for his gun to make ready, RO yells stop.What are you doing? His answer ,,You said make ready .RO I should have said turn around face down range and make ready. My point sometime people don't understand RO question,,or direction,,I would have done the sane as you did.He should have explained what he was doing a little better..but good call on both ends . Edited August 11, 2014 by EEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Sometime people ( shooters ) do as they are told ! My point was at a match start position facing up range hands above shoulders . So newer shooter comes to the line facing up range looking at the RO,he says make ready,shooter goes for his gun to make ready, RO yells stop.What are you doing? His answer ,,You said make ready .RO I should have said turn around face down range and make ready. My point sometime people don't understand RO question,,or direction,,I would have done the sane as you did.He should have explained what he was doing a little better..but good call on both ends . Disagree!With a brand new shooter then yes I probably will tell them to face down range to make ready. But more advanced shooters want to turn and draw a few times before actually loading the gun so it's just dumb to tell them to face down range and make ready. Besides that is not a range command anyway. Like I have always said this is a big boys game with big boy rules. If a shooter I know is not a newb I just give them make ready. After that it's on them to do the correct thing. What bugs me most, and I actually saw this at a sectional recently, was an RO refusing to give make ready until a shooter turned around and faced down range. The shooter clearly said he wanted to practice turn and draw but the RO was not interested. Now you have a frustrated shooter at a major match thinking the RO's don't know what they are doing. We are always quick to jump on an RO for not knowing the rules and being perfect, why not expect the same from a shooter who has been around more than day?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 why would he engage the safety on his holster when the timer is about to go off? he should be disengaging it so he can draw the gun. He forgot to unlock his holster. It was after "are you ready" so it was still legal for him to do that. sure i understand. But the OP question was " did you just engage the safety"? if the shooter was disengaging the safety lever logically he would say " no, i was disengaging the safety". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 why would he engage the safety on his holster when the timer is about to go off? he should be disengaging it so he can draw the gun. He forgot to unlock his holster. It was after "are you ready" so it was still legal for him to do that. sure i understand. But the OP question was " did you just engage the safety"? if the shooter was disengaging the safety lever logically he would say " no, i was disengaging the safety". I agree. This coupled with the fact it was denied after consulting with a buddy later tells me he realized his thumb safety was still off when he holstered. I am also not going to get into word games. When we say safety in this game we all really know what we mean. My RM holster does not have a safety. It does have a lock though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think you have to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt since nobody actually observed the shooter manipulating the safety one way or the other. The shooter said he misunderstood the RO so we have to take his word for it. With in the rules, and out of fairness, how else are we to handle it. Are we to say, you should have understood what the RO was asking you, and just in case you are lying to us, we are going to disqualify you? I certainly don't want to be a part of an environment like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) i want to ask a question that might pertain to this topic. this is not a hijack. if the shooter does not put the safety on while loaded and holsters, but does not remove his hand from the grip, what is the call for this? Edited August 11, 2014 by Sandbagger123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) i want to ask a question that might pertain to this topic. this is not a hijack. if the shooter does not put the safety on while loaded and holsters, but does not remove his hand from the grip, what is the call for this? The rule: 10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. If they are putting the gun into the holster, they are "holstering". Looks like starting the action with the safety off is already a violation. Edited August 11, 2014 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 i want to ask a question that might pertain to this topic. this is not a hijack. if the shooter does not put the safety on while loaded and holsters, but does not remove his hand from the grip, what is the call for this? The rule: 10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. If they are putting the gun into the holster, they are "holstering". Looks like starting the action with the safety off is already a violation. That's one opinion. Unfortunately english is very much context-dependent when it comes to perfective vs imperfective verbal aspect. In russian it would be entirely clear from the form of the verb "holstering" whether the rule-writer intended to refer to the process, or only the completed action. However..... if you try to claim you are NOT 'holstering' the weapon because your hand is still on it, but you pointed it at your leg while putting it into the holster, you probably no longer get the exemption for sweeping yourself while holstering. Bottom line, pointing a loaded single-action gun at yourself with the safety off is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I have never heard a holster lock/unlock make a click. Not saying I've seen every holster made, just saying I've never heard one click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildot1 Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Thanks for the thoughts and observations. I am pretty sure that I woiuld do it the same way but ask a few more questions to acertain that the shooter knew what I was asking. Thanks Mildot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 My RM makes a distinct click. Not nearly the same sound or as loud as a safety but it does click none the less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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