Farthest reasonable slug shot?

[P.E. Kelley]

Full size IPSC at 100

B/C zone at 75

Clay pigeon at 25.

I'm looking at you JJ.

This ^^^ and I don't feel much more needs to be said. But MD's can do whatever they want, some shooters will love it others will not attend.

[StealthyBlagga]

For sure a rifle is better than shotgun slugs at pretty much everything (except maybe messing up cars and grizzly bears). The point about slugs is that they give you the ability to reach out beyond shot range (50yds+) when the ONLY gun you have in your hands is a shotgun. Like the saying goes "when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". For this reason, pretty much any distance is reasonable provided it is the same for everyone. Certainly over 100yds the shot is VERY challenging, but who does not love a challenge?

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying? Are you saying no limit on distance is reasonable?

(not judging, just want to clarify)

Clearly slug targets should be hittable, at whatever distance they are set, using an ordinarily available smoothbore gun and commercially available ammo. But I don't think 100 yards (or 75 yards or 50 yards or any other arbitrary distance) should be the absolute limit. Instead, as with rifles, I think that "MOA at range" should be the primary criterion. I'd say slug targets should be not less than 12MOA at range across their smallest dimension (i.e. 6" at 50 yards, 12" and 100 yards, 18" at 150 yards etc.). Of course, at some distance (probably somewhere beyond 150 yards and before 200 yards) the rainbow-like trajectory enforces excessive hold overs and luck becomes too much of a factor - much the same as for a .223 rifle at distances beyond 600 yards and a 9mm pistol beyond 75 yards - but IMHO the "maximum effective range" for slugs lies significantly beyond 100 yards.

This is not to say I want to see such targets very often - I suck at hitting with slugs

Edited July 22, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[toothandnail]

For sure a rifle is better than shotgun slugs at pretty much everything (except maybe messing up cars and grizzly bears). The point about slugs is that they give you the ability to reach out beyond shot range (50yds+) when the ONLY gun you have in your hands is a shotgun. Like the saying goes "when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". For this reason, pretty much any distance is reasonable provided it is the same for everyone. Certainly over 100yds the shot is VERY challenging, but who does not love a challenge?

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying? Are you saying no limit on distance is reasonable?

(not judging, just want to clarify)

Clearly slug targets should be hittable, at whatever distance they are set, using an ordinarily available smoothbore gun and commercially available ammo. But I don't think 100 yards (or 75 yards or 50 yards or any other arbitrary distance) should be the absolute limit. Instead, as with rifles, I think that "MOA at range" should be the primary criterion. I'd say slug targets should be not less than 12MOA at range across their smallest dimension (i.e. 6" at 50 yards, 12" and 100 yards, 18" at 150 yards etc.). Of course, at some distance (probably somewhere beyond 150 yards and before 200 yards) the rainbow-like trajectory enforces excessive hold overs and luck becomes too much of a factor - much the same as for a .223 rifle at distances beyond 600 yards and a 9mm pistol beyond 75 yards - but IMHO the "maximum effective range" for slugs lies significantly beyond 100 yards.

This is not to say I want to see such targets very often - I suck at hitting with slugs

While I agree in theory, from what I've seen at matches, probably 60-70% will never hit 12" target at 100. That's off hand, I can't recall any supported slug shots.

Anyway, most slug targets here are "iron maidens" 30"x40" off hand at 75 or 100 yds

We shot a match with 2/3 IPSC at 60 yds from a swinging platform, NOT very good results

3 targets at each car, over the hood, through the drivers window, and over the trunk. ETA:each target had at least 500 rounds in the general direction.

Edited July 24, 2014 by toothandnail

[Religious Shooter]

I'd ask experienced hunters what max range they would take on a deer using a bead sighted shotgun (what 75-95% of the shotguns have) using slugs. "Practical" shooting.

[StealthyBlagga]

I'd ask experienced hunters what max range they would take on a deer using a bead sighted shotgun (what 75-95% of the shotguns have) using slugs. "Practical" shooting.

Our sport does not have any basis in hunting - it has it's basis in the martial use of arms. If someone is shooting at you from 150 yards away, and all you have to defend yourself is a shotgun, I'd would submit that slugs are an entirely "practical" solution.

[Religious Shooter]

You can say that at any yardage. If all you have is a shotgun and slugs and the guy is shooting at you at 300 yards you will take the shot at 300 yards. And yet is 300 yards a good distance to have slug targets at a 3 Gun match? I'd say no.

For the vast majority of people who participate in 3 Gun those who will actually use slugs in a "practical" setting will be shooting it to take a deer or a maybe a pig. Play the odds and have a practical distance where the great majority of the shooters would actually use a shotgun and slugs.

As far as it being a martial based game... sure. But are you telling me that flipped up clays, clays from a thrower and the clay target itself didn't come from a hunting based activity? You can't discount that some of the shooting in 3 Gun is based on the practicalities of hunting.

[Moltke]

The sport may have its beginnings in combat shooting but that's not what its turned into 25+ years later

If so, we'd just use torso targets for all guns at all distances???

(Which isn't a terrible idea because SPEED would still separate 1st - 2nd ---> last place)

But many would have a problem with it because they're used to something else now

[Stlhead]

Just because the guys that started the first 3 gun matches in the olden days where trying to prep for a "Red Dawn" or "Walking Dead" scenario does not mean that those that play it now are in it for the same reasons. For me, and the guys that I shoot with, it is golf with guns, the "practical" argument does not carry any water with me. I don't hate pizza box targets because they are not torso shaped, I dislike them because they don't offer as much flexibility in presentation or engagement. I say put the slug targets where ever you want, either they get hit or they don't, but don't tell me that people can't hit a 12" slug target at 100 yards, If I can do it any jack wagon can. Don't be surprised when a stage shows up somewhere with a 200 + yard slug shot on a barn door size target!

[bigbrowndog]

So then a 1/4" nail head placed at 25yds would be ok?????? Excellent!!!!!!!!!

I think you hit the nail on the head.

trapr

[Stlhead]

I would certainly take a couple of pokes at the head of a nail, You and I both have hit rifle targets that where not visible due to lighting conditions where we just engaged the spot we "thought" they where supposed to be. Hell I would rather shoot at a visible nail head than an invisible gong.

[StealthyBlagga]

You can say that at any yardage. If all you have is a shotgun and slugs and the guy is shooting at you at 300 yards you will take the shot at 300 yards. And yet is 300 yards a good distance to have slug targets at a 3 Gun match? I'd say no.

For the vast majority of people who participate in 3 Gun those who will actually use slugs in a "practical" setting will be shooting it to take a deer or a maybe a pig. Play the odds and have a practical distance where the great majority of the shooters would actually use a shotgun and slugs.

As far as it being a martial based game... sure. But are you telling me that flipped up clays, clays from a thrower and the clay target itself didn't come from a hunting based activity? You can't discount that some of the shooting in 3 Gun is based on the practicalities of hunting.

Although I assume your comment is an exercise in "reductio ad absurdum", I would not necessarily be opposed to a 300 yard slug target if it complied with my "MOA at range" guidelines... such a shot might be quite fun actually, though I agree not all that practical. My concern would be more around ensuring that the backstop was sufficient to contain any wild shots, because most folks would have no clue how much to hold over.

To answer the original question clearly, I would put the maximum distance for slugs on a man-size target at ~150 yards.

I agree that the sport has evolved far from it original martial roots, but I do feel it should retain those links - however tenuously - as a bastion against the trivialization many other shooting sports have suffered from.

Edited July 24, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[MarkCO]

Now wait right there Stealthy...NASCAR is heading back to their roots. They now have alcohol in the tanks.

I have not responded w.r.t. the "reasonable" distances with slugs related to hunting since the topic is forbidden on BEnos, but I will say it is a heck of a lot further with sabots, rifled barrels and optics than anyone in 3Gun has ever placed slug targets.

[mike cyrwus]

my thoughts

shooters miss w slug because of their trigger press, #1.

Distant second is Taking the wrong sight picture.

way down there is crappy ammo and accuracy of the gun

[Sterling White]

Full size IPSC at 100

B/C zone at 75

Clay pigeon at 25.

I'm looking at you JJ.

This ^^^ and I don't feel much more needs to be said. But MD's can do whatever they want, some shooters will love it others will not attend.

^^^This

[Benelli Chick]

I'm kind of confused by this whole thread!

I'm a 40% shooter...sometimes 50%, so I consider myself an average shooter. Back in 2005, I was winning, but I was younger, faster, could see better, and...wait for it, I practiced! But, anyway...I digress!

I remember one year at Ozark, there were these 2 slug gongs at 120 yards and 130 yards. They were full size IPSC. People were throwing in 5 and 6 slugs, missing and complaining. You could rest on the window frame. I've always been okay with slugs, in my 18" Benelli M1 with an IC choke in. I use reduced recoil...I'm not playing the girl card...I just don't know why you would want to shoot full pop, when they work just fine!

Anyway, I get to the stage, and Katie Harris, who I admit is an awesome shooter, and she is incredible with her shotgun, says "I hit them one for one. You can do it." I loaded 2 slugs, I needed two slugs. Does that mean I never miss slugs? No! But, I miss them because I do something not right..too fast, not a good sight picture, cheek not down on the gun, I forgot my MOD choke was in and they go different, whatever, MY FAULT!! Not the targets'!

Back East, with the high population, you have to hunt with slugs, not rifle. Those sabots are good and accurate out to 200yds.

Sure, 120 yd slugs are a challenge!!! 80 yard slugs on a 14"x18" target aren't gimme's! So what??

When I was a math teacher, I would say to my students, "if it was easy, you wouldn't be learning anything!"

I'm an average shooter, and I have the ability and accuracy to hit every slug shot I've seen at a match, including BlueRidge and the Andy Horner specials!!! Did I hit them all, NO!! This game is supposed to be a challenge. If I could hit every target at a match without even thinking about it, where would the fun be???

The main reason I LOVE 3-Gun, is because it's not just about trigger. It's about thinking...playing to your strengths, knowing what your strengths are. Deciding whether to go with less steps, or closer targets. 3-Gun is SO DYNAMIC!!! Yep! Sometimes, there are HARD shots!! Sometimes, I go to war, and I should just take a few shots and move on!! Again, MY BAD DECISION!! Not the targets fault or the stage designers fault!

Challenge is good! Am I a top shooter? Not anymore! Do I love 3-Gun and to be challenged? Yes! Do I bitch about targets that really make me work? Heck yeah!! That's half the fun of 3-Gun!!

But trying to make a rule about how far a stage designer can set out a slug...or what size?? Challenge is good! Challenge makes us better shooters. If it's a clay at 100 yards, maybe I would take one good shot at that puppy and move on!!!

But at Kurt and Trapr's match, I shot those little 25 yard clays with slugs, 4 inches at 25 yards is 16MOA..I think. so an 18" target at 100 yards is 18 MOA...less challenging! And I as I remember, I beat Daniel Horner on that stage!!! So maybe, I'm just awesome!!

But, seriously, average shooter, and I have the ability to shoot all the slug shots I've seen with my short little shotgun, with reduced recoil slugs! (Oh by the way, just to clarify, I have the dreaded pistol grip, and the original ghostring sights.)

Challenge is good, it makes us better shooters, and it's FUN!!!!

My $.02

As always,

Denise

Edited July 26, 2014 by Benelli Chick

[MarkCO]

Denise, have you shot a variety of slugs, through the many models of shotguns at 100 yards and looked at the group sizes?

[davsco]

a smoothbore isn't the best tool for the slug job by a long shot. i really like matches that let one choose between pistol and shotgun for slug targets. as noted above, let folks play to their (and their arsenal's) strengths. i can't imagine too many folks would reach for their 10-round shottie, shooting slugs, at 20-100+ yard threats if they had a pistol or AR handy, so why make folks do this in matches.

[ziebart]

Drifting slightly, but what kind of target/distance would you have to have to want to use slugs over pistol in a match? Or would it come down to other stage design elements?

[MarkCO]

Drifting slightly, but what kind of target/distance would you have to have to want to use slugs over pistol in a match? Or would it come down to other stage design elements?

Poppers out at 75 to 100 yards...slugs over pistol most likely. Don't think I have ever seen that choice though.

[ziebart]

True, all of the option slug/pistol shots I have seen have been static steel. A popper set a little heavy may cause people to question if their powder puff loads will knock it down.

[Moltke]

This past Friday I went to the range and did some testing with my own shotgun (accessorized competitive 3 gun shotgun)

Slugs at 50 & 100 yards on paper, open sights, with the low recoil slugs I've been using all year to get some actual data.

Results were disappointing -

From a bench with a precise point of aim using open sights, I'm shooting 3 inch groups at 50 yards. Sweet!

Then at 100 yards I'm shooting a 10-12 inch groups using the same gun, ammo, sights, etc. WTF.

My first thought was "wow I suck" even though I the shooting seemed perfect.

Then someone pointed out to me that rifled slugs through a choke swage down a bit so the farther they fly the less accurate they get.

I'll continue to test this as time goes on with other ammo's and chokes, but is anyone else getting similar results?

Really makes me re-think what level of accuracy I want in my slug shooting because 12 inches at 100 yards with open sights seems terrible.

[Moltke]

Hi BC. I know that you don't want standards or expectations established so you can do whatever you want as a match director and I'm not asking you to change.

I'm interested in finding out what's a reasonable target so I can have the right gear and train to be better at the game, and help others do the same.

And at my local club help them understand what's a good and bad slug target since our local match is a mix of veterans and newbies at different skill levels.

A clay at 100 yards is a great example of a bad target because its put downrange with intentions of nobody being able to hit it, only to mess with shooters or penalize them.

[MarkCO]

Think on this...with low recoil slugs, they are going slow enough that you can affect accuracy due to follow-through, flinch and contact with props. Also, the sighting system precision is poor. If I shoot my AR with BUIS at 100 yards, I can improve my accuracy by going to a 1X optic, and then improve it again by going to 4x and again by going to 10x. Shotgun slugs (the ones we shoot in competition) have several parameters conspiring against "accuracy."

[Dan Sierpina]

Ken,

You shot the match at Topton this past weekend, the 2 slug targets were 50 yards, how many people did you see miss them? Not practicing makes everything difficult. I like Kelly's suggestion of B/C out to 75 yards, full size IPSC 100, and the clay at 20-25 is an intimidating target, but not really that difficult, yet challenging.

[Moltke]

MarkCO, thank you. I have thought of it but don't have a scope that I want to test 12 gauge recoil on! Hopefully other ammo's will yield better results? ... but if not at least I know that I better load up some extra shots if I run across a smaller than normal slug target farther away.