Bullets Forward or Out?

[zhunter]

I'm seeing some stuff about mag pouches that are set up for a bullets out configuration as opposed the the conventional bullets forward setup.

With the bullets forward, I grab the mag by reaching back and indexing with my weak hand fore finger. With the bullets out, would your index be your weak hand thumb hitting the forward facing part of the magazine? I'm trying to imaging how this works consistently.

I can see the benefit of bullets out as your weak side forearm has 90 degrees less rotation to line up the mag to the magwell, but I'm concerning about a consistent index.

Those of you that do it or tried it, what are your thoughts?

[HI5-O]

I have used both and settled on the Limcat mag holders (not really a pouch) and my mags now face out and forward.

It might make a difference to someone who may have difficulty rotating their arms when drawing a mag.

You will get use to whatever setup you have. BTW my index finger is on the front of the mag when I draw it.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

It really doesn't seem to matter. Bullets out has a more natural feel for front mounted mag holders( limited rules). Bullets forward (conventional) for the more rearward pouches.

Tweaking out on this would be a colossal waste of time for many.

[leath4m]

I shoot IPSC Standard and find I can get my mags closer together with bullets out. I brought DAA Racemaster pouches just for this reason, and because of the equipment rule in standard. However my fourth mag way at the back is canted really forward and in the bullet forward position. I find this is the position that my hand naturally falls way behind my back.

[Neomet]

Personal preference. I will say out is helpful if you are shooting production and have a small waist. Keeps you from having to reach around to your tailbone for your last mag.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Neomet

[2MoreChains]

I was a bullt forward guy for a long time, then made the switch about a year and a half ago. Started wearing my mag pouches bullets out in Limited and liked it so much that I changed my Production and SS belt/pouches. For me, the advantage is I don't have to turn my wrist to grab the mag, especially in Prod and SS when I have mag pouches going all the way around from 9 o'clock to almost 6 o'clock.

Plus in SS using the DAA mag pouches I can fit 6 in less space with bullets out. Cool thing about the Ghost and DAA mag pouches is you can configure the pouches to either orientation so if you don't like one way you have other options.

[Sandbagger123]

i started with bullets forward and then went to bullets out. bullets out feel more natural. look at the way you arm fall. if stright down it usually fall with the index finger facing 9 oclock, where one would probably need to turn their wrist for bullets forward.

[38supPat]

Use whatever is comfortable for you and then dryfire and practice the hell out of it. There is at least one top european shooter that uses a bullets backwards set up and he can match anyone on a reload.

[stickboy44]

I have gone bullets forward and bullets out and I like bullets out the best

much easier to grab the mag for quicker mag change

[Neomet]

Use whatever is comfortable for you and then dryfire and practice the hell out of it. There is at least one top european shooter that uses a bullets backwards set up and he can match anyone on a reload.

You mean besides when Eric G does his badass reload while shooting weakhand??

[eric nielsen]

I've done it both ways using the Ghost pouches and Production mags. Using only 4 pouches there's no real difference in how much room it takes up on my belt. I switched back to bullets-forward just because that's how i've done it in Open and Limited for many years. Also it was a more natural flow at the time when I was tapping the top/rear of the new mag into the back of the CZ magwell (which is not very big).

Since then I asked Ben a question which he answered on his podcast - http://benstoeger.com/joomla30/media/com_podcastmanager/swingers.mp3

After playing around with it a while I found myself keeping the gun in a very natural position (tipped not even 30 degrees to the right) down in front of my sternum; can't see the magwell at all, eyes on the bottom 1/2-inch of the grip panel. New mag comes up at about a 45-degree angle, top round pointed pretty directly downrange. Tap the the top-LEFT edge of the new mag into the LEFT side edge of the magwell. Easier to do than to describe. The mag goes to the right place front-back-wise if I remember to touch the left index fingertip to the front/bottom corner of the gun each time. Beauty of this reload is it does not change from standing to running left to running right, it's all the same. Pretty easy to do with eyes looking somewhere else entirely such as a stage prop you have to run around. I believe bullets-out would work well with this but I'm not changing again.

As Ben says in one of his books, it helps a lot to point the gun right at the mag pouch you're drawing from and also get a very solid grip on the new mag - think of it as a left-handed draw. If you botch your pistol draw, the shooting may go south quickly. If you botch your magazine draw, the mag change may go south quickly. Whichever style (bullets-out or bullets-forward) gives you the most solid consistent magazine draw, that's probably the way you want to go with, for all pistol divisions.

[EWOK]

Personal preference. I will say out is helpful if you are shooting production and have a small waist. Keeps you from having to reach around to your tailbone for your last mag.

I guess that would depend on what pouches you are using. For the Ghost pouches, the attachment width is fixed no matter which direction the bullets are facing.

[Solidgun]

I have found myself recovering faster from "OSHIT" moments when I have the bullets facing forward as I am sweeping down to look for wherever I left off because it was not a part of my stage plan.

[zhunter]

After a few days of testing (probably not a fair test afters 10's of 1,000's of reps bullets forward) I switched back to bullets forward. My grip index was just not there. That being said, these factory M&P mag with the big azz front lip all but eliminate a really good grip. I ordered the compact basepads yesterday.

The spacing on the Ghost 360 pouches is the same whichever configuration you choose.

That all being said, bullets out is Ergonomically superior.

[Nimitz]

I was interested in it becuase I could locate my 5 mag pouches closer together to make #4 & #5 easier to get to ...unfortunately I recently switched to the Safariland competition ELS belt system and with that the receiver plates can not be located right next to each other which would negate any spacing advantage so it's bullets forward for me ...

[BeerBaron]

if you want to go bullets out AND maximize the space on belt and the space between mags then you really need to go with DAA racer or race master pouches. personally I have both and prefer the plastic racer pouches over the aluminium racer masters.

I'll tell you why.

the first reason is cost. RM's are $60+ R's are more like $40. makes a difference when you need 5 of them.

both RM's and R's use the same super thin hanger.

both can mount bullets forward or bullets out (or even LHS or RHS).

both can easily add a magnet to the first pouch (with the R you can ordered it with magnet fitted to save drilling a hole).

the RM has a complex ball joint which allows you to tilt the pouch in any direction. I actually find it's a hassle. hard to hold in position while you tighten down the two lock screws. I personally don't need this much adjustment in a mag pouch.

the R just has a little plastic piece with groves cut around it (like a clock face with no numbers). this allows me to rotate the pouches, but not change angle. it also makes it very easy to get every pouch set up the same. this system is also less prone to coming loose.

being aluminium the screws in the RM come lose over time. they do settle down though after a few tightens they stay tight. still a small thing.

being plastic the R's stay tighter longer, they do come lose in the beginning too, but settle down more quickly.

being plastic I find the draw from the R's to be a bit smoother than the RM's. just a little bit. there is a bigger difference in holstering mags. putting them into a R is much smoother than a RM.

being plastic the R's are lighter than the RM's. again not a big deal but it does make a difference when you have 5 on a rig.

the RM's are undoubtedly stronger and will literally last a lifetime.

the RM's do show up wear and scratches quite easily.

the R's do not really show scratches (especially the black ones).

the RM's look a bit cooler. but the R's still look nice in black.

the good part about either R or RM pouches is that if you go bullets out you save HEAPS of space. they can be spaced very close together. their retention is very good on both models so you could just about put them upside down if you wanted to. many guys in open run them canted right back so as you draw the mag it's already almost horizontal on its way up to the gun.

as to which way works better? forward or out? I dunno. I seem to like bullets forward but that's how I've always done it. Out does seem to have some merit but at the end of the day it's a personal thing. pick the one you can do most repeatably.

[eric nielsen]

After saying I wouldn't, I switched back to bullets-out. It works better for my type of low reload. To answer post 1 (and 13) yes I'm sweeping the left thumb around from pouch to pouch; when it finds a mag, the rest of the hand wraps around the mag & draws it out. Works best when the index finger finds the corner of the pouch near the 1st bullet before pulling the mag; it also finds the front strap of the gun before seating the mag, so that fingertip controls how long those two pauses last. If the thumb doesn't find a mag it just bounces over the top of empty pouches until there's a full one stopping it from going further. In dry-fire I go beep, draw, and 4 reloads in under 6 seconds every time. Warmed up, more like 5.5. Shadow Target with Ghost pouches.

Dry fire's pretty much all I do this summer with work every other weekend and houses in 2 counties to take care of. Eventually that will settle down.

[BeerBaron]

eric, I know it's OT, but I forgot to post it before. your open gun is shit hot! very nice.

[HardChrome]

Whatever works for you, man. We are all different.

[burttrans]

Good topic I just order DAA Racer mag pouches I was not even sure I could mount both ways (bullet forward or bullets out) glad I have the option. New to USPSA so not sure which way I will go but enjoyed the read for some different ideas.

[BeerBaron]

funnily enough I shoot with a guy who runs bullets backwards too. he is a super senior but regularly finishes in the top 8 or so in level 2 and level 3 matches (IPSC standard division, very similar to limited in USPSA). It seems to make sense when he explained it to me, but for the life of me now I can't see how it can be as good as forward or outwards. he makes it work though.

so there's something to try to really stuff with your brain. bullets backwards.

[zhunter]

funnily enough I shoot with a guy who runs bullets backwards too. he is a super senior but regularly finishes in the top 8 or so in level 2 and level 3 matches (IPSC standard division, very similar to limited in USPSA). It seems to make sense when he explained it to me, but for the life of me now I can't see how it can be as good as forward or outwards. he makes it work though.

so there's something to try to really stuff with your brain. bullets backwards.

He would be indexing the mag with his weak hand thumb, and then just bringing it up in an arc.

Of course us bullets forward guys index with our forefinger and bring it up to the magwell while rotating the forearm 180 degrees.

Bullets out is by far the most ergonomic, index with the thumb, bring it up to the magwell while rotating the firearm only 90 degrees.

[BeerBaron]

funnily enough I shoot with a guy who runs bullets backwards too. he is a super senior but regularly finishes in the top 8 or so in level 2 and level 3 matches (IPSC standard division, very similar to limited in USPSA). It seems to make sense when he explained it to me, but for the life of me now I can't see how it can be as good as forward or outwards. he makes it work though.

so there's something to try to really stuff with your brain. bullets backwards.

He would be indexing the mag with his weak hand thumb, and then just bringing it up in an arc.

Of course us bullets forward guys index with our forefinger and bring it up to the magwell while rotating the forearm 180 degrees.

Bullets out is by far the most ergonomic, index with the thumb, bring it up to the magwell while rotating the firearm only 90 degrees.

thinking about it you are dead right. something that may be a factor in his case is he is missing (from memory) his index finger and middle finger (could be middle finger and ring finger though).

your're right, he reaches back and indexes the back of the mag with thumb, draw them out (has them canted forward) and they come around as they come up to the gun. it works fine for him and he still shoots and reloads bloody fast!

[KOBGT]

Use whatever is comfortable for you and then dryfire and practice the hell out of it. There is at least one top european shooter that uses a bullets backwards set up and he can match anyone on a reload.

Agree with this. You can get as fast as you need to be bullets forward or bullets out. Go with the one that gets you the most consistent reload

[gransport]

I switched to bullets out while running an M&P in Production. It only took me a week to get used to it and fixed the issue of one mag catching the lip of the mag behind it and throwing a full mag on the ground. I've since jumped on the CZ bandwagon, but stayed with bullets out. Just seems natural for me now.