EC803 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 This argument arose my last match the stage procedure said start gun empty on table. Didnt specify anything else. First thing its perfectly legal to have bolt open if you prefer correct? 2nd is it legal to have ammo in your hand per 3 gun nation rules. I understand outlaw matches can make up any rules they want so that makes it very complicated when it comes to peoples understanding of the rules. On person stated it was not legal to start any stage with ammo or mag in Your hand. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 USPSA 3 gun rules cover not starting with ammo in the hand but I can't find a reference in 3GN or FNH rules. If it doesn't say it's not legal then it should be legal unless the stage description says otherwise. A lot of time people seem to fall back on USPSA pistol rules out of habit but they do not apply. I shot a stage yesterday that required all ammo to be on the tables and for the guns to be empty. It didn't specify anything beyond empty so most locked back slides to make loading faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC803 Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 I completely agree especially about the part where people seem to fall back on uspsa rules if they don't know. I wanted to asks because it seems like there is at least one argument every match about the rules. This is one that has come up more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 3gun rules are in shambles. It feels like most clubs just makes stuff up as they go along. I have also heard many say that they don't want or need large rules books but this is the perfect example of why you do need something more comprehensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Local clubs do a good job of covering a lot of this in the WSB. For unloaded starts, they use the phrase "cruiser ready". No rounds in the chamber and slide/bolt down. Loaded magazine inserted unless further stipulated as no magazines in the gun. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 What the heck is cruiser ready? Is that defined somewhere in anyone's ruleset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 What the heck is cruiser ready? Is that defined somewhere in anyone's ruleset? I think the term comes from the tactical realm. As stated above, magazine (tube) loaded, empty chamber, bolt down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock34shooter Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 What the heck is cruiser ready? Is that defined somewhere in anyone's ruleset? Cruiser ready is a police term for the condition a shotgun is keep in a patrol car during shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) What the heck is cruiser ready? Is that defined somewhere in anyone's ruleset? Cruiser ready is a police term for the condition a shotgun is keep in a patrol car during shift. Cruiser ready is loaded magazine and empty chamber. Keeps the cops from shooting holes in the roof of the patrol car. Doug Edited June 22, 2014 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 This argument arose my last match the stage procedure said start gun empty on table. Didnt specify anything else. First thing its perfectly legal to have bolt open if you prefer correct? 2nd is it legal to have ammo in your hand per 3 gun nation rules. I understand outlaw matches can make up any rules they want so that makes it very complicated when it comes to peoples understanding of the rules. On person stated it was not legal to start any stage with ammo or mag in Your hand. Thanks for your input. What rule set does your club follow? Is it their own, 3GN, USPSA?? If it is their own it would be legal as long as the WSB simply stated unloaded on table. When writing the WSB the stage designer should be clear of the intent of the stage if they want a particular start position. Outlaw is anything goes if it is unwritten. Falling back to USPSA rules is not right unless your club follows those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Outlaw has many flavors and as many answers to your questions. In USPSA you can check the book yourself but here is what I find: "First thing its perfectly legal to have bolt open if you prefer correct?" -No, per USPSA MG Rules, 3.1.4.1 If the firearm is to be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the action must be fully forward and closed (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing. "2nd is it legal to have ammo in your hand per 3 gun nation rules." - I don't see anything in the 3 Gun Nation rules that prevents this. In USPSA - No, per MG Rules, 3.2.4 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, or any loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms). Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC803 Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Where is shoot goes by 3 gun nation rules from what i understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travtastik Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) All the clubs I have tried to start with ammo in my hand has shot it down b/c the sage description was start with arms relaxed at side. Was told you are not relaxed I you are holding on to something. Edit to add these were 3 gun nation clubs Edited June 22, 2014 by Travtastik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 3gun rules are in shambles. It feels like most clubs just makes stuff up as they go along. I have also heard many say that they don't want or need large rules books but this is the perfect example of why you do need something more comprehensive. No, this is a case of poorly written stage briefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I agree with Bryan. Nothing should be made up as they go along. Rules should be set in place before the match and stage briefs should be written in a way that the directive is clear. If there is room for interpretation then fine. No need to make up rules to prevent someone from thinking outside the box. If that is the case the stage designer should have thought through things more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig G Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 regarding ammo in your hands as per 3GN regional rules 4.3 4.3 Additional 10 Seconds: Before the Start Signal, no more than 9 rounds total loaded in the shotgun and the competitor cannot have any ammunition in their hands. This does not apply to OPEN class shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I shot a stage yesterday that required all ammo to be on the tables and for the guns to be empty. It didn't specify anything beyond empty so most locked back slides to make loading faster. I was glad I learned quad loads with shells stacked on a table! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I shot a stage yesterday that required all ammo to be on the tables and for the guns to be empty. It didn't specify anything beyond empty so most locked back slides to make loading faster. I was glad I learned quad loads with shells stacked on a table! Yeah, came in handy on Saturday. My first set went in good. I messed up the second set, got two in the gun and decided to take my chances going 6 with the 4 steel and two clays. I only wish I would have shot that fourth steel before going for the clays because that might have been a stage winning time. Guess I will have to wait the mysterious two-weeks for scores to be posted to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Adding to the fun: I have shot several major, NRA LE and minor matches that specify cruiser ready and I have yet to see it defined in those rule books. Its a point of contention because "everyone knows cruiser ready" varied from stage to stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Adding to the fun: I have shot several major, NRA LE and minor matches that specify cruiser ready and I have yet to see it defined in those rule books. Its a point of contention because "everyone knows cruiser ready" varied from stage to stage. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 When in doubt, ask the RO. I have shot 3-Gun matches that either specified or allowed bolt open, and I have shot ones that specified bolt closed. I think the single stupidest starting condition I have ever seen was rifle propped against a wall, muzzle up, mag inserted, bolt open. Outside of USPSA, same variation with rounds in hand. I have had matches where it is allowed; I have had matches where it is not allowed, but hands at start condition is unspecified so you can literally start with the hands hovering right over your top-off rounds; I have had matches where it is basically USPSA rules where nothing is in the hand and you must have hands relaxed at sides. At a club match where ROs move with the squads, I generally try to ask questions like that at the match briefing so the MD can answer for everybody. At a match where the ROs stay with the stage, I just ask during the stage briefing. As long as the RO hasn't yet told somebody else that something is disallowed, I might get the go ahead to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) 3gun rules are in shambles. It feels like most clubs just makes stuff up as they go along. I have also heard many say that they don't want or need large rules books but this is the perfect example of why you do need something more comprehensive. NO it's pretty SIMPLE If it's NOT in the rules it's ALLOWED . Any arguing I've seen at a match It's the "we need RULES group" that always argue/fall back on the USPSA rule book If your shooting matches where "it's made up as we go along" find a better match. I don't currently, and never will knowingly signup for or, shoot a match that's shoot target A.C.E. from box A , take 2.5 steps to box B shoot target B.D.F. etc. Edited July 7, 2014 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Treat every stage like its own dedicated match with its own rule set. and sometimes its easier to just ask the RO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Who likely doesn't know either so each squad interprets the rules on each stage a slightly different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullittmcqueen Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Who likely doesn't know either so each squad interprets the rules on each stage a slightly different way. This is how I have observed matches going at A3G which is where the OP is talking about. Basically if it's not in the stage description it's legal, and that's the answer you get from the MD if you ask. What ends up happening is you see another squad shooting a stage completely different than you and it pisses you off because you didn't think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now