Limited 10

[Gary Stevens]

OK folks, here is your "official" question for the day

There are voices in the membership that want Limited 10 changed to a Single Stack 1911 Division. One thought would be to fashion it around the IDPA Custom Defensive Pistol or the Single Stack Society rules.

This is a major decision that the BOD and President will be facing at some time in the future. Maintaining the program we have now would be the easiest approach as it wouldn't tick off hardly anyone. People don't usually get mad over things they don't have, but do when they lose something they do have.

On the other hand, the Single Stack Division could be a good thing for USPSA and a crossover road for new shooters from IDPA.

Another issue is how will this effect members who live in states that limit their rounds to 10? I guess they could still shoot their S_I, Para, etc. guns in Limited within their own state, as everyone else will be shooting the same equipment.

As you can see, this is a thorny issue. I, and others on the BOD, would like to hear what you think on this issue.

I have no position either way at this time. My ears are wide open though to hear what you have to say.

Thanks in advance.

Gary

[DougCarden]

I am biased, I started with my single stack .45. When I shoot a club match, I shoot LTD with my STI High-cap .40, and LTD-10 with my singlestack .45. I would prefer going to single stack myself. My .02$( value depending on the Euro... )

[dirtypool40]

I have to begin with a disclaimer that I love, own and shoot both brands of S_I's. They are the finest competition pistols available. Right now I have one and am picking up THREE more when I go home on leave in Feb. I am NOT anti-S_I. I also shot an IDPA legal single stack carry gun in LIMITED before there was an L10

As for the question asked, It's Simple; for recruiting new shooters, for sponsorship and to honor the roots of the sport L10 is bad for USPSA and Single Stack is good. Stay with me and I'll explain why.

Right now there is no place in USPSA for a single stack, unless you are a sponsored pro or like ice skating up hill. Clearly L10 caters to S_I and to a lesser extent Para. These firms already own Open and Limited. Why are we unfairly protecting them with "L10", now that the AWB has sunset? We have consigned Colt to History, Kimber won't give us the time of Day, and Springfield, who has staunchly supported us throughout the last 20+ years has NO GUN that is competetive in USPSA unless TGO shoots it.

Think about it guys, just stop and think. Those three firms, Colt, Kimber and Springfield sell upwards of 250k guns per year!!!! How can they NOT sponsor the hell out of us when we come to our senses and offer them a place to shoot them without looking like tacti-krishnas (IDPA). A fun, SPORT to promote their products safely. But right now they have almost no reason to get involved.

I love and shoot single stacks. I own about half a dozen, some set up for carry, others for NON USPSA competition. Why? I am not as dumb as I look, I shoot a high cap with gaping magwell better than ole' slab sides. People that "CROSS OVER" to shoot their single stack in L10 are invariably frustrated by having to compete against a full on Limited gun. They bounce off us as fast as they came in. What if that new shooter could cross over and see HIS GEAR out there the first match he shot? Holy Cow!!! Totally new concept.

I for one would love a fair, fun place to shoot a gorgeous single stack. I have shot Heinie's SSC and actually ran the FLorida version for two years before work got in the way. I said it before, Heinie's SSC was the prototype for IDPA, and he did a better job of keeping it fun, fair and competetive. Start with those rules, the 8/45,9/40,10/38 rule for capacity, major/ minor & carry type holsters and mag pouches behind point of hip and lets get back to designing good courses.

OK, but what's the down side? What about all those poor Glock and Para Owners? There really isn't one. If you are set up for L10, you can move to Limited or Single Stack easily. It will have about the same impact as when they actually came up with the box rule or an official way to measure mags. I say, quit fishing in the little pond, buy a mag or two and move into limited. Is there really any SERIOUS L10 competitor out there who does not own any high caps? For crying out loud Glock high caps, brand new ones, are back down to about $20 per.

Yes, if you live in People's Republik of Kalifornia only shoot 10 rounders, do it in Open too like the Canadians have to, but don't drag us down into your personal hell. Should the rest of the country self impose a 12 round limit because some goofball in Jersey does? Yeah, good thinking let's help the brady bunch.

Everyone is making a 1911, even lazy S&W. Shouldn't there be a place for the hottest selling pistol in the country? Or the roots of our sport? A place for IDPA victims, black and blue from the LGB to come and have fun? A place for a checkered, walnut stocked, leather holstered John Browning classic? Wouldn't you like to be able to shoot your 1911 from carry type gear without grumbling about the other guys "Ice" Magwell, long dustcover or Race holster?

Let's stop, think............and make a change for the better.

Single Stack is LONG over due.

[Jim Norman]

My opinion only

Leave L-10 alone. As it stands we can shoot our Para's, S_I's Glocks or whatever. Change it to Single Stack and you alienate a large portion of the avaialble shooters.

Jim Norman

[diehli]

Another issue is how will this effect members who live in states that limit their rounds to 10? I guess they could still shoot their S_I, Para, etc. guns in Limited within their own state, as everyone else will be shooting the same equipment.

Hey Gary,

This is not the case at all here in CA, the largest contributor (membership-wise) to USPSA. As if shooting against Taran and MV in Limited wasn't enough of a challenge, telling members with non-singlestack guns and only 10 rounds that they have to compete against not only these people, but LOTS of others with high capacity magazines.

Leave L10 alone. Advertise it as the crossover division, if need be, but don't change it. Hell, if you REALLY want IDPA shooters, create L8 with Production-esque equipment placement rules.

[Gary Stevens]

300 Pound Gorilla,

I think you missed the part of the original posting that said the 1911 Single Stack Division might be formed around the IDPA CDP rules or the Single Stack Classic rules. I believe those are 8+1 now. If I understand your posting, that is exactly what you are proposing for a "real crossover".

Am I reading your post correct? Are your feelings still the same?

Just trying to get a clear read.

Gary

[Merlin Orr]

Think about it guys, just stop and think. Those three firms, Colt, Kimber and Springfield sell upwards of 250k guns per year!!!! How can they NOT sponsor the hell out of us when we come to our senses and offer them a place to shoot them without looking like tacti-krishnas (IDPA). A fun, SPORT to promote their products safely. But right now they have almost no reason to get involved.

What Gorilla said has to be true!

Needs to be a new and separate division.

Name it Single Stack - or whatever.

8 rounds + 1

Let the guys who shoot in our brother sport, IDPA, come over and shoot their CDP rigs with the additional creative opportunities found in USPSA.

No new guns required for either "set" of shooters. The guys who shoot L 10 can keep their huge magwell openings. The guys who shoot the SS guns can compete on level ground.

IMHO

[Gary Stevens]

I agree that that would be the best of all possible worlds. However that is not the question that will be on the table at some point. The question will be in effect to do away with L-10 and replace it with a Single Stack Division.

The establishment of a totally new Division in addition to the existing Divisions, I don't think has the snowballs chance of success in Hades.

[raz-0]

I shoot a single stack in l-10, and I say leave it alone. Even if you mandate single stack, I still say avoid IDPA rules period. My single stack is set up according to USPSA rules right now. Sticking me with IDPA CDP rules would be telling me to essentially not bother showing up with my nice pricey 1911. The IDPAs judgement on what is a carry or reliability modification should have nothing to do with me shooting USPSA. If I liked that idea, I'D BE SHOOTING IDPA.

There's not a single thing keeping kimber or SA from fielding a competitive gun other than either they don't want to make one, or the competitors don't want to buy one. In fact I shoot a springfield armory, and CDP rules would tell me I should leave it at home because it ahs a 5" bull barrel, and weighs 42oz. I happen to shoot .45, but Why should someone witha .40S&W CZ-75 not be allowed to shoot it in single action from a race holster in L-10 if that's what makes them happy? What are you gaining by telling that competitor to go home but the .45 guys making the same power factor to stay? Why should a guy with a CZ97b have to go home because his 10 round magazines aren't single stack?

And just what the hell does modified for carry, not competition, mean anyway?

The only reason i can imagine for changing the L-10 rules is because with the AWB sunset, there might be a lack of participation. However, any IDPA crossover or migration would be able to shoot what they bring in l-10 right now without issue. The only thing keeping their guns from being competitive would be some 10 round magazines. Single stacking it would mean that ESP shooters might have no place to shoot what they brought with them at all, much less while being competitive.

I would suggest that kimber and SA's level of participation is not because of their inability to produce a competitive pistol, and creating an artificial void will not prompt them to fill it any more than they raced to fill the natural void that folks like para and STI did.

[AK74]

To me it sounds like the question is not about changing L10, but whether to eliminate L10 and replace it with a new Single Stack division.

Here, on the local level, L10 is already mostly SS’s with a few Glocks.

Go to a larger match and you see Limited shooters shooting in L10 just so they can win something, I agree with Eric something is wrong with this picture.

With the end of the Assault weapons Ban, L10 division makes little sense outside of California or states with similar laws.

I too have shot a Single Stack Society Match and the interest and turnout was huge. So a real Single Stack division may do well, L10 on the other hand is dieing out.

[Merlin Orr]

The establishment of a totally new Division in addition to the existing Divisions, I don't think has the snowballs chance of success in Hades.

Well then - thats a damn shame. An SS division would be HUGE.

I don't see how the guys in the states that are limited to 10 round mags could be competitive in Limited - The same as the guys (99% of em) shooting SS guns can be truly competitive in L 10.

Again - IMHO

TY40676 - all shot with SS .45

[Run n Gun]

Oh Boy, here we go yet AGAIN!

Posted on: Oct 26 2003, 01:27 PM

  On one hand you all say how L10 is bringing the most NEW shooters to the sport and in the same breath you talk about changing it! It never ceases to AMAZE ME how you “gray beards” can completely miss a major point about L10.

I’m one of those new shooters and I can remember what brought me into this sport and I VERY actively recruit new guys (two yesterday!) so I think that I speak accurately as to what draws new shooters in, at least locally.

After their eyes get bright with initial explanation of what we do, after we get them to the match and then loan them ammo or mags and mag pouches and coach encourage and praise them, THEY’RE HOOKED and want to know what they need to do this again. The standard reply is; “ go buy a $20 Kydex holster and a double mag pouch and have at least 3 magazines and 150 rounds of ammo and we’ll see you here next month”! Their eyes INVARIABLY drift down to our race gear and they ask questions about it like “where can I get STUFF like that!” Patience lad, learn the game, develop your skills look at what other people use and then upgrade your “stuff” a little at time.

The major point you guys miss is HUGE draw the race gear has! The “COOL FACTOR” is off the charts! The beauty of it is you don’t NEED to spend the money on it to get started and when you get very experienced, you probably don’t NEED it to win! Just wearing the stuff makes you feel like a SERIOUS competitor, like there’s no impediment left between you and your goal of being the best gunslinger out there. The gun and gear and division are intertwined in the minds of most L10 shooters, absolutely inseparable, change one and it’s NOT the sport we bought into. Change one and you’ll force us to completely reevaluate our level of participation. Draconian anti-freestyle rules are going to COST you shooters. So Vince and Duane, the “little” thing like moving the holster behind the hip WILL have profound, albeit, negative effects!

One more time, L10 is just FINE the way it is. Single stack division? PLEASE… If the Glock Boys want to come out and play… bring it on! Those mean “trophy hunters” coming down from Limited to pick on us poor little L10 guys? Most of the guys that are shooting Limited have been in this sport a lot longer that us “new” L10 guys and they have more experience than us (duh) and for the most part experience wins. So. We’ll get better with time (if allowed to) and those guys are just getting older! I did some research on some of the “big dogs” (A-M) and their first classifier scores weren’t any better than ours. Given the opportunity it will all even out.

I posted the above in just one of the many, many threads on this subject and it is STILL the way I feel.

One more thing, it’s my STRONG opinion that if you aren’t ACTIVELY involved in L-10 then STFU!!!! The internal workings of a Division that you don’t compete in are NONE of your business!! Sorry for the tough language but it seems, most of the people that want the changes DON’T even compete in the division! As my Granny used to say "tend to your own knitting"!

Ed

[IPSCDRL]

Gary, dropping L-10 and replacing it with a single stack division would not matter to me either way. I shoot a SS .45 in L-10 division now becasuse that is the division that best fits me for that gun. I could easily use one of my double-stack guns in L-10 but I love the SS .45. I can reload it just as fast and easily as a double stack gun. Its just a matter of practice. (the avoidance of which is what causes most of the concerns in this area from what I've seen)

[MikeFoley]

I don't want to be insensitive to the widebody only owners, but I totally agree with dirtypool40. I see no reason under the current rules to shoot L10. There is a competitive advantage, although a small one, to the widebody. I shoot my widebody in Limited almost exclusively. I would shoot L10 if it were not downloaded Limited, ie: if it were singlestack. I will not shoot it with my Limited gun, why would anyone want to if they were not forced to by state government restrictions?

As for STI and Para, they both offer awesome singlestacks, as do the other manufacturers you listed, and a bunch of custom builders. I do see an issue with Glock owners, but I am not sure how to address it.

Though I love my racegun, I too think it is overwhelming for new shooters, especially those with limited resources(or those who already own a ss), to try to get in the race with the $2K guns.

[Pierruiggi]

How about the international consequences of adding a Single Stack division to IPSC (not a USPSA only division like L-10, but a worldwide division)?

I think there would be a lot of interest in shooting 1911's or single stack SIGs or whatever and be competitive in IPSC. Of course, that would need a new division.

[D.Hayden]

Why not just allow people currently classified in L-10 to vote on the change? This could be quickly done on the USPSA website.

Questions:

How many people shoot L-10 in the affected states (states not permitting > 10 round magazines)?

Moving to 8+1, right after array sizes increased to 9, is just aggravating.

When shooters come to California (I know this is a small number), and want to shoot with thier S_I's, wide body Para's, etc.. they need to compete with 10 round mags in Limited? At least L-10 would make them more competitive. They're really not allowed to bring thier high-caps.

I didn't see what the other equipmet changes would be.. belts, holsters, sights, etc.. Would my Wison and McM 10-round magazines be allowed: probably not, mag holders: gone, holster: gone.

Leave it alone!

[LPatterson]

At my local level there are very few double stack Limited shooters shooting in Limited 10 unless the competition level is high in their class and they just have to have another plaque. The main problem I would have with a change to a Single Stack 8+1 division is not being able to use the dozen 10 round magazines I bought so I could compete in Limited 10. Should the board decide to create a Single Stack 8+1 division, I would probably move back to Limited which is where I started in 1999.

[JFlowers]

Change in and of itself is neither good nor bad. What makes a change good or bad is the reasons for that change. Personally, I have no problem with change, but I don't think change without reason is a good idea.

I shoot L10 with a dressed out Kimber .45 using 10rd singlestack magazines. I like that setup and I think its as competitive as I can be. If we change to SA guns, SS magazines, and non-race gear, then we have created two Production classes and I don't see why we would need them.

So, Gary my question becomes... Why? What is the long range goal and does the current L10, a new SingleStack, or something else fit that goal better. Is it membership? Legal? If a proposed change creates a better fit for those long term goals then I would support that change. But I don't see any information here that leads me to support it.

[Precision40]

Personally, I think Limited 10 should be done away with. However, since the US has states which prohibit High-Caps, the right thing to do would be to leave it as it is. I think changing it to a Single-Stack division is a good idea, but I seriously doupt that people would swarm to it. It would be like making a revolver open division, there are people who shoot it, but not as many as most people think. HQ would simply be indulging a very limited amount of shooters.

I think it's been proven that you can be as competitive as the wide-bodies in L10 with a single-stack. The more important matter needs to be aligning the Production mag capacity rules with IPSC rules.

[Gary Stevens]

Mr. Flowers,

Good questions, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I guess this starts from a group of members who want to form a SS Division. In and of it's self, that is a great idea. However, when USPSA forms a new Division we also have to support it. That adds expense to an already strapped organization. The chance of getting 5 members of the BOD to vote to create yet another Division under those circumstances, is slim at best.

The original intent, as I understand it, to Limited 10 was to duplicate Limited item for item, except limit it to 10 rounds in the magazine. This was in response to states imposing magazine restrictions on our members who live and compete in those states.

To me the demise of the AWB has zero to do with this discussion as it was Federal, and we still have to deal with states that retain their versions of the ban.

Some, who will probably voice their opinions here at some time, think that the L-10 is duplicative and really does not offer a new option or challenge to the shooter. As I attend tournaments I notice that the majority of shooters in L-10 that I observe are using a full house Limited gun downloaded to 10 rounds. These shooters jump in and out of Limited and Limited 10 as they see fit using the same equipment. I am sure at the local level the situation may be different.

The proponents of this idea also point out that there are numbers of IDPA shooters who use 1911's in CDP who might also play our game if the cross over was made easier. This has been the case with Production Division and IDPA Stock Service Pistol Division, as I have seen quiet a bit of new interst from IDPA shooters, admitidely at the local level. Crossover from IDPA and USPSA is mainly a philosophy issue, but equipment can also be a hinderence assuming you can overcome the philosophy issues.

If we were to adopt a 1911 Division, using the Single Stack Classic equipment rules, holsters, pouches, etc. we would have 5 distinctly different Divisions for members to choose from, that might be a good thing.

I want to have a full understanding of the implications though before I reach any conclusion.

If I understand the law in California for instance, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, if you possess normal capacity magazines you are in tall cotton. But I understand they can't be sold, traded, loaned, or even passed on in your estate. Is that correct? If so, I wonder about the long term viability of Limited as we know it at this time in such states.

I note that some reference the 9 round rule from any single position. I would also note that references a maximun, not a requirement. Course designers are free to design courses with any number of rounds per position up to the maximun of 9.

Obviously the question revolves around growning USPSA and what is best for the organization as a whole. There will be some members who will voice their intent to quit and never shoot IPSC/USPSA again if any change is made to any Division. That is their right. But the bigger question is what is best for the body USPSA, not for the single member who may not agree with a particular direction. If we required universal 100 percent agreement in any endevor we would come to a quick halt.

So in the long winded way I have tried to answer you, from my point, I want to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. Only then can I make an informed decision.

The points though need to be relevant and not steeped in only emotion.

Gary

[Patrick Sweeney]

A long time ago, I learned to ask "What are we trying to do here?" as a prerequisite to any course of action.

So, what are we trying to do with a "new" L10? Will we gain members or shooters at matches?

How many shooting L10 now with widebodies already have a single stack pistol in the safe? Will they switch guns? Switch Divisions?

With many club-level L10 shooters using single stacks, would a newly-defined division bring them up to bigger matches? We have a large disparity between the desires and equipment of the club-level shooters, and the gear and desires fo those who shoot big matches. Who do we structure the Dvisions for?

And what of the single stack shooters who have invested in 10-shot mags? Is obsoleting their investment a suitable price to remove the "advantageous" widebodies from their midst?

And, as we seem to have a certian percentage who would complain about any change, how many of the objections are based on perceptions of what the members want or will do as a group, and how much on personal inconvenience or equipment preferences?

One quesiton came up: why a second "Production" Division? Why not? Must every Division be a no-holds-barred equipment free for all? Then again, what could you possibly want on a single stack 1911 that you can't already buy as a finished gun from a manufacturer?

I don't see that there is any rush in deciding, but let's be clear about what we want.

[DougBarnes101]

This is just my .02.

Leave things alone. I shoot L-10 with my Les Baer and Chip McCormick 10 rounders. I don't shoot IDPA but that is a personnel thing. I think anyone who shoots IDPA and wants to shoot USPSA is already doing so or they will do it within the Divisions that already exist. Most of the ones that don't shoot USPSA are not doing so for reasons other than equipment. You know the reasons we have seen on this forum dozens of times so I don't believe making a different division will atract them.

[dirtypool40]

Gary and Patrick make some good points, and that's what I am trying to do; ask Why? What are the effects? and Are we likely to accomplish an improvement for the effort? I really believe we will gain more shooters, sponsorship, and a new division that makes sense.

I have shot probably 10-15 matches with Jeff Gambrell, L10 point series winner and helluva nice guy. Yes, he owns a single stack, but he'll be the first guy to tell you, like most of us who are honest, that the full on, high cap Limited rig is just easier to shoot.

At the local level, L10 is OVERRUN with high cap trophy hunters. You will be hard pressed to find a skinny gun in the hands of a serious competitor. (Exception being Mike Fordyce, and he kicks ass in LIM against all the high caps). I know decent A & B shooters who "hide" in L10 as a way to have a shot at an HOA, even if they only beat four new people. In a lot of cases, L10 is another way to sandbag. You're afraid of the local Limited class hot shots, so you duck into L10. Then you can say "I had to hit an extra reload, so his time really isn't better than mine." and other lies. USPSA is about competition, not sandbagging.

Newsflash; Jeff often wins the ENTIRE match over the Open guys too shooting L10 because he's a good shooter prepping for something bigger, not hiding from the LIM guys beating on newbies. I don't mean to get on a rant, but I see too much trophy hunting, and it equates to sandbagging.

No? How many Serious L10 guys shoot high caps? about 90%.

How many ONLY have 10 rounders? NONE.

While I would like to see the "8,9,10 rule" for capacity, I would be amenable to allowing ALL calibers to have 10 round limit. That way we make the IDPA guys spend a little to get in instead of asking our current shooters to do so. First couple of matches it wouldn't hurt an IDPA guy "trying things out" to shoot his 8-rounders.

Someone said why do we need two "production divisions", I think it makes sense that we SHOULD have them. Two wide open race divisions, Open / Lim, and two that allow easy cross over and less expense to get started Prod / Single Stack.

As to participation; when I ran single stack matches, no one had trouble coming up with gun or gear. I honestly believe most 1911 owners, not just USPSA shooters mind you but the thousands of 1911 owners, have gun and gear that would fit into "Single Stack" with very little expenditure.

If we could get the damned gun rags to quit bashing us we could be inundated with new shooters. Everyone out there is buying Glocks and Kimbers, as that's what the gun rags tell them they are allowed to buy to be cool. Glocks go to production (for the most part) and Kimbers could come out to play in Single Stack.

Yes, our gear is cool. I am a gear head, I like sexy gear. I have AET, Accu rails, scott grips, the whole nine. But I KNOW, without a doubt, I would have gotten into the sport sooner and would have had more luck recruiting shooters WHO STAYED INVOLVED if the first time they came out, they saw inexpensive gear they recognized.

RAZ-O, "modified for carry means", to me, 5# trigger, night sites and LW parts where applicable. Competition, I go more towards 1.5# trigger, and like some things heavier. Actually what I wrote was "I love and shoot single stacks. I own about half a dozen, some set up for carry, others for NON USPSA competition." I am not one of those that shoots an all out Open S_I and then carries a G26. I want commonality as much as possible, so pretty much everything is a 1911 pattern, but I digress.

[D.Hayden]

Gary... great reply.

I looked at the "1911 Single Stack Match Rules" http://www.1911society.org/rules.htm, didn't see anything about changes to the pistol, sights, triggers, etc..

Why not go all the way and make it 45's only? Isn't that by far the largest segment of single stacks?

Although I'm cheap, I could live with these, since I started with all that equipment, except for the magazines. I'd prefer to keep 10 round mags. Could we use the 10's but download to 8?

I'd still bitch, but enjoy shooting my Kimber enough, I'd shoot in the new division.

[Gary Stevens]

The SSC rules are very liberal to a large extent. I have a full house Nastoff 45 I shoot in SSC matches, (only old timers will recognize that name) that has everything you could ever want on a gun. Checkering, mag well, Bo-mars, beavertail,etc, etc, etc. They do restrict tungsten guide rods though. Nothing heavier than plain steel. They do limit you to 40 and 45 at major PF and the total is 8+1 in either caliber.

When I use the IDPA CDP rules or the SSC rules, I am only trying to give a point of reference to relate to. If USPSA were to go in this direction, we would craft our rules to fit our needs, but I feel those two disciplines would have great influence on such rule making.

Thanks.