StagePlan: Take shot when tgt first visible, or wait to get closer?

[JGus]

Here is my conundrum. I'm shooting Production. I'm terrible at stage planning because I haven't yet figured out when to shoot a target that can be shot from two different locations (with one location closer to the target than another).

For example, I'm not sure if I should minimize mag changes by reaching out to some targets at a distance, keeping my mag changes to a minimum, or not worry about the number of mag changes and shoot the targets from a closer position as I move through the stage? I haven't figured out if minimizing mag changes is more optimal, or being as close to a target as possible is more optimal even if it means more mag changes (of course all the while avoiding standing reloads regardless of strategy)? Obviously I will shoot more slowly the farther the target, but since I'm already in that spot to shoot other targets, will it save me time? Or, should I wait until i can get closer, meaning more mag changes, and have a faster first shot and follow up shot?

I'm pretty good at reloads. When I was shooting Limited, it really wasn't an issue. Maybe one reload per stage. But shooting Production has turned stage planning into more of a chess match than a game of checkers.

Edited June 4, 2014 by JGus

[motosapiens]

it depends. if all other things are equal, you should be able to get the same hits in less time if you are closer. If it doesn't cause a standing reload and if I have to go there anyway, I would tend to shoot closer.

Last match there was a target I felt fit my plan better to shoot from far-away, because the alternative would have caused an awkward reload situation.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Switch to Limited.

[lawboy]

Motosapiens has it right, as usual.

If you have to go to the position anyway, then wait to shoot them closeup because:

1. You have to go there anyway;

2. You can shoot faster when closer;

3. You can shoot A's faster with more certainty closer;

4. The sooner you get to that position the faster the run will be since you have to go there regardless.

The better I get at reloads, the less I worry about doing 2. vs. 3 reloads on a stage. More and more, I opt to do an additional reload to improve stage flow, rather than shoot the stage some way that is built entirely around saving a single reload. I keep winning.

[JGus]

That was kind of my thought, to wait and shoot when I get closer also meaning I do another reload. BUT, I normally will shoot the target from the farther position for no other reason than I can and it's too tempting not to shoot it since I'm already in a position to shoot it.

[wide45]

Closer usually means better points faster.

If you can reload on the move do it.

[Chris iliff]

If you have to go "there" why take a far shot?

This only applies "if you have to go there".

This gets back to one of the first things a better shooter told me 11 years ago when I first started. Ymmv.

[uncledoc]

Thanks Chris.....I wished I had this info two weekends ago

[motosapiens]

That was kind of my thought, to wait and shoot when I get closer also meaning I do another reload. BUT, I normally will shoot the target from the farther position for no other reason than I can and it's too tempting not to shoot it since I'm already in a position to shoot it.

another data point to consider, you may have an easier closer transition to the particular target from one position or another. That can either offset some of the disadvantage of shoting from further away, or it can compound it. You also have to consider whether you will get confused as to what you've shot. I sometimes pick a slightly slower stage plan because it's simpler and I know I can execute it without hesitation and end up being about as fast, with less chance of mistakes.

my advice would be to do some dryfire and live-fire drills that involve movement between 2 positions. do it with and without a reload and get an idea of how much (if any) time a reload while moving actually costs you. That can help make your decision easier.

[MarkCO]

I have not read the responses, but I doubt most of them will do YOU any good. YOU have to get on the range, set up some stages and run the drills. Once you knowYOUR metrics, then you can stage plan. If you don't know your metrics, then all discussions of when to shoot what targets, and adding or deleting a reload are worthless. It is like running a rally course on someone else's line who has a different weight balance, tires and power to weight ratio...you might not crash, but it won't be the best line.

Set up 3 targets spaced at say 3 feet. Put a line at 25, 20, 15, 10 and 5 yards. Shoot 2 per from the 25, score it. Shoot 1 per, reload shoot 1 per, score it. Those are your baselines. Then play with the variations. For instance, at the start move while drawing to the 20 yard line, shoot 1 per, reload while moving to the 15 and shoot 1 per, score it. At the start, run as fast as you can to the 10, shoot 1 per, reload while moving to the 5 and shoot 1 per. Once you have all the combinations down, change it up. Try 6 rounds, reload on the move 6 rounds. Then try haul ass to the closer position, shoot 6, standing reload shoot 6.

In your notes, keep track of both time and points, not just the HF.

I know that I can take 6 shots at 20 yards, reload on the move and take 6 more shots at 10 yards and get a better HF than if I move up to the 10, shoot 6 reload standing and shoot 6, but that may not be the case for you. Every time you add 10% to your match scores is a good time to go back and recheck your metrics, as they will change.

Edited June 5, 2014 by MarkCO

[rishii]

+1 to MarkCO

Run drills, pay attention to your hits and split time at a given distance, what are your hits and times at 25 yds compared to 10.

Next plan a re-load in the drill, 6 targets, 2 shots each:

1st run stay planted @25

2nd engage 3 targets @25, move towards the 10, engage on the move after the re-load

3rd same as above, except book to the 10 and engage

4th, start @ 25, and book to the 10, engage all with a standing re-load

Compare your hits and times, I was surprised about the amount of time it took me to get slowed down and set up for a shot

On a movement drill, also don't get hung up on never doing a standing re-load, I shoot in a10 round everything state,

And I found that there are stages where it's faster to book to a position and shoot everything up close with a standing re-load,

Than to take a far shot, to save one

[JGus]

All good info. After Area 5 I'll run some drills with the timer to see what works best. I'm sure it will be if I am eventually going to be closer to a target at some point running the stage, wait until I get closer.

Just wanted some good advice before Area 5.

[Neomet]

I have not read the responses, but I doubt most of them will do YOU any good. YOU have to get on the range, set up some stages and run the drills. Once you knowYOUR metrics, then you can stage plan. If you don't know your metrics, then all discussions of when to shoot what targets, and adding or deleting a reload are worthless. It is like running a rally course on someone else's line who has a different weight balance, tires and power to weight ratio...you might not crash, but it won't be the best line.

Set up 3 targets spaced at say 3 feet. Put a line at 25, 20, 15, 10 and 5 yards. Shoot 2 per from the 25, score it. Shoot 1 per, reload shoot 1 per, score it. Those are your baselines. Then play with the variations. For instance, at the start move while drawing to the 20 yard line, shoot 1 per, reload while moving to the 15 and shoot 1 per, score it. At the start, run as fast as you can to the 10, shoot 1 per, reload while moving to the 5 and shoot 1 per. Once you have all the combinations down, change it up. Try 6 rounds, reload on the move 6 rounds. Then try haul ass to the closer position, shoot 6, standing reload shoot 6.

In your notes, keep track of both time and points, not just the HF.

I know that I can take 6 shots at 20 yards, reload on the move and take 6 more shots at 10 yards and get a better HF than if I move up to the 10, shoot 6 reload standing and shoot 6, but that may not be the case for you. Every time you add 10% to your match scores is a good time to go back and recheck your metrics, as they will change.

Mark, there you go again being logical and analytical. Jeez........

Edited June 6, 2014 by Neomet

[LikesToShoot]

Mark,

I understand the drills and learning from them but why not worry about the Hit Factor?

Thanks,

Steve

[Nimitz]

You've already gotten plenty of good advice but the bottom line is:

1. Never plan a standing reload

2. When you are moving your actions (in priority order) should be:

- shooting

If shooting does not make sense (and most of the time it does not), then you should be

- reloading

If you are not reloading you should be hauling ass like a scalded ape to get to the next shooting position becuase

If you ain't shooting, you ain't scoring any points ....

[MarkCO]

Mark,

I understand the drills and learning from them but why not worry about the Hit Factor?

Thanks,

Steve

I think there is a misunderstanding. YES HF is important, but I like to see raw time, and points down. That lets me know what is affecting my HF. For me, if I am shooting 100% of points, I am either getting lucky, the targets are very close or (most often) I am going to slow. When I drop to about 92% of points, I am going too fast, breaking my weak side grip or prairie dogging. I learned these from keeping track of time and points, not just the HF.

[LikesToShoot]

Awesome points.

I just finally started paying more attention to HF and this will help a lot.

[glockified]

Lots of good posts here. I have been struggling with the same question for a while now, and in production I think it is almost always better to run and shoot targets closer. Distant shots take me too long to execute and my points may not be great, so I avoid them whenever I can.

[MarkCO]

So I played a little with this "theory" at the match yesterday. Had 4 field courses, 2, I posted up and shot, then moved (won both stages) and the other two I shot on the move... I was 5th and 2nd on those. The miss and 2 Ds on those stages cost me the match win as well as pushed me below 92% of points.

On both of my stage wins, I was a tad slower than the 2nd place (and match winners) shooters time, but shot better points.

Just one data point, but I have seen similar results over the past year. Granted, it is based, in large part on my current skill level and physical condition.

[LikesToShoot]

I used to think it was always better to get closer but during a recent practice session I noticed my second and third runs were several seconds slower than the first. My shooting friend pointed out that I had ran forward on those two runs (trying to knock a few plates over) and it really killed my score. When I just stood there at my last shooting position and took the time for better front sight focus I was much better off than going to another shooting position. That little practice session changed my way of thinking. Sure, there will be times that I will move closer but not always.

[waynes_world_45]

Don't worry about getting all the rounds out of your mags....switch after 4 rounds if it makes sense...reload on the move

Shoot on the move whenever possible....stopped feet = slow....at least be shooting coming into a position and be leaving while still shooting...you'll need to practice shooting on the move, but watch the big dogs...they all do it....

I made "B" class by running and stopping, but have figured out to make "A" I need to shoot on the move more....2 more points and I'm there

And Like the others said...if you have to go there anyway wait til you're closer...if you can eliminate a stop then take the longer shot

[Nimitz]

Not sure I understand the logic behind making A class by learning to move more/better? Well over 75% of all classifiers are stand and shoot and are some version of "draw, shoot 3 targets, reload, shoot 3 more targets"....

I would think to move from B to A class you'd need to learn to stand and shoot faster, ie: draw a little faster, reload a little faster and transition a little faster.

Don't get me wrong, learning to move better will improve your field course scores and match results but to be better at stand and shoot you need to practice stand and shoot

A well known, top pro on this forum once said, just becuase you can shoot difficult targets well does not necessarily mean you will shoot easy targets well .... You have to practice those too ...